Best acoustic guitar for Elliott Smith tone?

[Manbelton]

Originally Posted by I. Newhart

I knew Elliott, and I’ve spoken on other forums as to people wondering what he was using to get his doubled vocal sound. The answer to Elliott’s guitar sound and his vocal sound were one in the same: it was just Elliott. He was a tremendous talent who put in the years honing and nurturing his talent. Everything recognizable about his guitar playing had 100% to do with his playing and 0% to do with the guitar he was playing. That might not be a popular thing to say here, I don’t know. But I will say that whether he was playing his cheap (Taiwanese; not even Nippon) Red Label FG-180 or whether he was playing the J-50 later in his career, it was always Elliott making the guitar sound better, and never was it the guitar making Elliott sound better.

Don’t worry about finding the guitar that will give you Elliott’s sound. It doesn’t exist. You obviously love his music. Just learn to play every song. It’s a labor of love, but it will get you there. You’ll get that seamless fluidity between strumming and fingerpicking that Wizz Jones, Richard Thompson, John Martyn, and Elliott did so well. Find any guitar that’s enjoyable to play and just play it. There is nothing substantial about what type of guitar Elliott used. Look at Nick Drake. People very close to him - to this day - can’t decide whether he was playing an M-20 or a D-28 on “Pink Moon.” And my opinion is, “who cares?” I know it’s Nick Drake one bar into any of his songs. Elliott was the same way.

Hope I’m not being discouraging. I loved and continue to love and miss Elliott dearly. And by proxy, I love anyone who wants to dig deeper into Elliott’s bag of tricks. But the ace up his sleeve was always the insane amount of years he spent practicing. REALLY practicing. If you get to where you can smoothly play “Everything Means Nothing to Me” on guitar (it’s hard enough on piano), then you’ve got your Ph.D. (Elliott could do it. I couldn’t come close!)

Okay, sorry if you made it this far. Good luck and learn every song. At that point, you won’t sound like Elliott, you’ll truly sound like you. That’s the Elliott approach: find music you love, and learn it all forwards, backwards and into the ground. Don’t worry too much about the guitar. Hope that statement doesn’t get me kicked off this forum on my first post.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

Thanks for sharing! Elliott Smith is one of my favorites.

I can't find it right now, but I recall a quote from Julian Lage who said something like "Wow - to be able to play like Elliott Smith would really be something." Lage can emulate a variety of styles as well as anyone (and of course has his own distinct voice) and even he is blown away by Elliott's playing.

[Everton FC]

Originally Posted by ManyMartinMan

Since chasing someone else's tone can be a very time consuming and costly (and frequently impossible) journey, I would get a great guitar and chase the romancandle tone. Let someone chase you.

Here, here! Even Smith's tone was influenced by others. All of us are. Go after your own sound. You can do it w/a 180, or a 331 (like I have) or an L5A (I prefer the 331), or a beat up old Val Dez (like in my signature - rosewood saddle and all!). Take the guitar you have, and do what you can with it. But even I like to venture into a guitar shop where the walls are lined with instruments I'll never be able to afford, and dream a little, with my pick and my fingers!

[GuestIN]

Originally Posted by Manbelton

Thanks for sharing! Elliott Smith is one of my favorites.

I can't find it right now, but I recall a quote from Julian Lage who said something like "Wow - to be able to play like Elliott Smith would really be something." Lage can emulate a variety of styles as well as anyone (and of course has his own distinct voice) and even he is blown away by Elliott's playing.

That’s a great compliment to Elliott, and Lage is obviously not alone in that sentiment. Some musicians are formally trained, others study theory on their own, some just learn by playing in crappy bands until one day they either quit or find themselves competent. Elliott just kind of soaked up everything he came into contact with, whether it was Bach, the Zombies, or ZZ Top. He had the uncanny ability to internalize the best parts of anything he listened to and could subconsciously weave those threads into his own work. I think one of Elliott’s greatest strengths was in the open door of his creative workshop and a mentality of “it’s easy to learn something new from the Beatles, but if you can’t find something interesting in a Scorpions song, or a Celine Dion song, then you’re not listening hard enough.” Elliott saved the best morsels from every song he ever loved and used all those hooks — those tricks — to write his own music. It’s the exact same way Lennon and McCartney wrote. They wrote with little tricks they figured out from music they loved and then figured out how to incorporate them into their own wholly original music. This is how most great art has been made: by consuming that which consumes you. The end product is never derivative, as long as you consume many, many influences.

Elliott, even more than Lennon/McCartney, was a master of passing/slash chords, in a manner that allowed him to move about chromatically in a way that was very natural to the ear. He did this intuitively. He couldn’t tell you what 75% of those passing chords were called, but he knew where they led. His incredible voicings were totally intuitive, too. These things constitute so much of what makes it impossible to play like Elliott, as Lage was alluding to. Add to it, he had impeccable rhythm that never wavered, even if he flubbed notes. He was akin to Mississippi John Hurt, who also would miss notes, but he always missed them on time. That is the human element that I think attracts people to both Smith and Hurt. Beautiful music that breathes, and at times stumbles, but always recovers in time with the backdrop of perfect rhythm. Because time — the second hand — doesn’t waver in life, and we innately understand that. So when rhythm wavers in music, the illusion in the music rears its head. I think Lage might agree with that. And obviously, time in music changes all the time, but it changes according to its own rules. I’m just saying that Smith and Hurt followed those rules, so the illusion of time always felt like real life.

I’ve rambled enough. Let me just close by saying that Elliott’s greatest musical gift (just my personal opinion) was his blind spot to his own brilliance. It was like he worked a job with direct deposit his whole life, and he never even knew he had a checking account. He just worked. That’s why no one will ever be able to do justice to an Elliott Smith song (or a Mississippi John Hurt song), because only those two could play their own songs. Have better guitarists existed, and exist right now? Sure. Thousands. How many could play Smith or Hurt’s songs right? One each.

I’m not going to re-read all I just wrote. I hope it’s not total nonsense. As before, sorry if you made it this far. Thanks for enduring.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

[Manbelton]

Originally Posted by Manbelton

Thanks for sharing! Elliott Smith is one of my favorites.

I can't find it right now, but I recall a quote from Julian Lage who said something like "Wow - to be able to play like Elliott Smith would really be something." Lage can emulate a variety of styles as well as anyone (and of course has his own distinct voice) and even he is blown away by Elliott's playing.

I was able to track down the interview I was thinking of:

"To be able to play guitar like Elliott Smith would be the coolest thing ever."

At the 7:45 minute mark or so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2RalGnY4Nk

[GuestIN]

Originally Posted by Manbelton

I was able to track down the interview I was thinking of:

"To be able to play guitar like Elliott Smith would be the coolest thing ever."

At the 7:45 minute mark or so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2RalGnY4Nk

Just checked it out. Thanks for posting that link. Great stuff!

[Trent in WA]

Originally Posted by I. Newhart

I’m not going to re-read all I just wrote. I hope it’s not total nonsense. As before, sorry if you made it this far. Thanks for enduring.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

Thanks for your posts--they're lovely meditations on Elliot Smith and much appreciated.

[Rexsblues]

I think what Mr. Newhart said above is very insightful, especially when it comes to drawing from many wells of inspiration.

I also think there's a difference between trying to approximate someone's tone, and wanting to play like them. I really love Bob Dylan's acoustic tone on Freewheelin', but I don't directly mimic his playing. A Gibson acoustic with slightly dead nickel strings gets the tone and vibe of his acoustic sound, without copying his actual technique.

As far as your original question goes, I'm not sure the Fender is the right guitar to get Elliott's tone if it sounds "crunchy". If you listen to his guitar, it always comes across as very mellow. So from the guitars you mentioned, I'd use the Seagull, and let the strings get pretty dead. I think that will get you pretty close. Otherwise as others have said, there are many FG-180s to be had for decent prices. I was fortunate to inherit my grandfather's, and was very stoked as a teenager to learn that it was the same model Elliott played.

[GuestIN]

Originally Posted by Trent in WA

Thanks for your posts--they're lovely meditations on Elliot Smith and much appreciated.

Trent:

Wiser blood than mine said I write because I don’t know what I think until I read what I say.

Thank you and everyone else here for providing a place of respectful discussion about Elliott as a musician and artist, and not all the sensationalized scab-picking of his personal problems (which were just part of being human) or his end. It’s cathartic for me to happen upon - what appears to be - a safe place to ramble. So, thank you all for being respectful of someone who was just a really good dude. His musical brilliance has, and always will, stand on it’s own. That said, I haven’t listened to his music since 2004, though every part of every song is hot-branded into my brain for the duration, and I’m happy to discuss what Elliott created, even if it’s with some trepidation.

Anyways, I keep forgetting this is an acoustic guitar forum and not my Thursday, 11:00 a.m. appointment with my therapist. Regardless, it’s nice to hear others talking about Elliott the way he should be talked about, but rarely is. That means a lot to a lot of people who were close to him. So, thank you.

Okay, enough grateful gloom. Next time I can ramble about how a late ‘30’s Gibson HG-00 to Spanish conversion is my favorite pre-war 12-fretter, or why a ‘22 Martin 0-28 will cut through the band just as easily as the best D-28 or perfectly maintained Mossman (a rare bird to find) - any day of the week. I deal with these kind of guitars every day, so I will chime in here and there, if that’s what it takes to keep me in the good graces of the forum. But in the interim, thanks for being such a pleasant bunch. And to see someone named “Rex’sBlues” conjures up a mindset that so many of us understand completely, of course that includes Townes and Elliott:

I'm chained upon the face of time
Feelin' full of foolish rhyme
There ain't no dark till something shines
I'm bound to leave this dark behind

And if you actually are Wrecks, forgive me for mentioning it. But I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t the most beautiful and difficult two-chord song I ever learned to play the right way. Probably took a year. But I got close! Consume that which consumes you. Y’all are a good bunch. I’m on a pilgrimage to Brevity, I promise . . . just a long ways off.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

[GoneTroppo]

Originally Posted by I. Newhart

Trent:



Wiser blood than mine said I write because I don’t know what I think until I read what I say.



Thank you and everyone else here for providing a place of respectful discussion about Elliott as a musician and artist, and not all the sensationalized scab-picking of his personal problems (which were just part of being human) or his end. It’s cathartic for me to happen upon - what appears to be - a safe place to ramble. So, thank you all for being respectful of someone who was just a really good dude. His musical brilliance has, and always will, stand on it’s own. That said, I haven’t listened to his music since 2003, though every part of every song is hot-branded into my brain for the duration, and I’m happy to discuss what Elliott created, even if it’s with some trepidation.



Anyways, I keep forgetting this is an acoustic guitar forum and not my Thursday, 11:00 a.m. appointment with my therapist. Regardless, it’s nice to hear others talking about Elliott the way he should be talked about, but rarely is. That means a lot to a lot of people who were close to him. So, thank you.



Okay, enough grateful gloom. Next time I can ramble about how a late ‘30’s Gibson HG-00 to Spanish conversion is my favorite pre-war 12-fretter, or why a ‘22 Martin 0-28 will cut through the band just as easily as the best D-28 or perfectly maintained Mossman (a rare bird to find) - any day of the week. I deal with these kind of guitars every day, so I will chime in here and there, if that’s what it takes to keep me in the good graces of the forum. But in the interim, thanks for being such a pleasant bunch. And to see someone named “Rex’sBlues” conjures up a mindset that so many of us understand completely, of course that includes Townes and Elliott:



I'm chained upon the face of time

Feelin' full of foolish rhyme

There ain't no dark till something shines

I'm bound to leave this dark behind



And if you actually are Wrecks, forgive me for mentioning it. But I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t the most beautiful and difficult two-chord song I ever learned to play the right way. Probably took a year. But I got close! Consume that which consumes you. Y’all are a good bunch. I’m on a pilgrimage to Brevity, I promise . . . just a long ways off.



Best,



I.A. Newhart

Very glad you're here Mr Newhart... Your posts have been an enjoyable read, informative and musically thought provoking.

I look forward to your future "ramblings".

All the best!
Troppo

[zoopeda]

I saw Elliott Smith say in an interview somewhere that he needs a loud guitar because he bites all his fingernails off and doesn't use a pick. He felt these old red labels are super loud for bare fingers. He also doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to go around trialling and critiquing various guitars before deciding. He's also said in interviews the reason there's no piano on his early records is that he didn't feel like hauling his gear over to his friend's house who had a piano. I think karma just landed one in Elliott's lap, and that was that. I wouldn't read too much into his section of the red label beyond that.

[GuestIN]

Originally Posted by GoneTroppo

Very glad you're here Mr Newhart... Your posts have been an enjoyable read, informative and musically thought provoking.

I look forward to your future "ramblings".

All the best!
Troppo

Thanks for the welcome door, Troppo. It’s much appreciated.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

[GuestIN]

Originally Posted by zoopeda

I saw Elliott Smith say in an interview somewhere that he needs a loud guitar because he bites all his fingernails off and doesn't use a pick. He felt these old red labels are super loud for bare fingers. He also doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to go around trialling and critiquing various guitars before deciding. He's also said in interviews the reason there's no piano on his early records is that he didn't feel like hauling his gear over to his friend's house who had a piano. I think karma just landed one in Elliott's lap, and that was that. I wouldn't read too much into his section of the red label beyond that.

I’m with you here. I can’t remember with 100% certainty, but the main FG-180 was actually a reddish/orange label that was one of the early Taiwanese ones. It wasn’t a Japanese (Nippon Gakki) model. I’m not sure if he even noticed the difference. He may have bought true Red Labels after some Goodwill Hunting or DreamWorks money came in, as he had no problem spending money on all kinds of gear at that point. By the time he had the money to buy a Trident A-Range and all kinds of vintage Lomo’s and Neumanns, he could easily afford old Gibson’s. But his image was already tied to that Taiwanese “Reddish Label” Yamaha, and that’s when you saw the price on them go through the roof. But as Zoopeda says, the Yamaha just happened to be what Elliott had, it’s what he wrote on, it’s what he practiced on, and it’s what he had to record with — in the beginning. So, of course he was comfortable with it.

I can say as a lifetime of being both a musician and engineer, the instrument that the musician has the greatest familiarity with is always my first choice to record them on: be it a Yamaha, a Martin, an Ovation, or a Banner ‘45. What sounds good is a confident performance. So, I agree, the Yamaha just happened to be what Elliott had. The fact is, most guitars can’t be picked out by ear by anyone. This is coming from someone who’s life depends on guitars. If playing a Red Label inspires you and feels good, then that’s the guitar for you. Play what makes you want to practice, be it a Hello Kitty guitar or a D-45. I had grown up learning everything Charlie Christian had ever recorded before I even knew what an ES-150 was. When I finally got a chance to play one like his, I sounded way less like him than I did on my old archtop (both imitations were miles off the mark, regardless.)

So, yeah, don’t read anything to the Red Label thing. Elliott had no problem making beautiful music with them when that was all he could afford, and he had no problem playing more expensive guitars once he could afford them. And that music was every bit as beautiful. Buy what inspires you. And then give that guitar the attention it deserves; it will pay back tenfold. And FWIW, I still have my FG-180 from 20 years ago. Good luck on your search, and keep listening for the good stuff.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

[zoopeda]

Originally Posted by I. Newhart

I’m with you here. I can’t remember with 100% certainty, but the main FG-180 was actually a reddish/orange label that was one of the early Taiwanese ones. It wasn’t a Japanese (Nippon Gakki) model. I’m not sure if he even noticed the difference. He may have bought true Red Labels after some Goowill Hunting or DreamWorks money came in, as he had no problem spending money on all kinds of gear at that point. By the time he had the money to buy a Trident A-Range and all kinds of vintage Lomo’s and Neumanns, he could easily afford old Gibson’s. But his image was already tied to that Taiwanese “Reddish Label” Yamaha, and that’s when you saw the price on them go through the roof. But as Zoopeda says, the Yamaha just happened to be what Elliott had, it’s what he wrote on, it’s what he practiced on, and it’s what he had to record with — in the beginning. So, of course he was comfortable with it.

I can say as a lifetime of being both a musician and engineer, the instrument that the musician has the greatest familiarity with is always my first choice to record them on: be it a Yamaha, a Martin, an Ovation, or a Banner ‘45. What sounds good is a confident performance. So, I agree, the Yamaha just happened to be what Elliott had. The fact is, most guitars can’t be picked out by ear by anyone. This is coming from someone who’s life depends on guitars. If playing a Red Label inspires you and feels good, then that’s the guitar for you. Play what makes you want to practice, be it a Hello Kitty guitar or a D-45. Whatever gets your rocks off. I had grown up learning everything Charlie Christian had ever recorded before I even knew what an ES-150 was. When I finally got a chance to play one like his, I sounded way less like him than I did on my old archtop (both imitations were miles off the mark, regardless.)

So, yeah, don’t read anything to the Red Label thing. Elliott had no problem making beautiful music with them when that was all he could afford, and he had no problem playing more expensive guitars once he could afford them. And that music was every bit as beautiful. Buy what inspires you. And then give that guitar the attention it deserves; it will pay back tenfold. And FWIW, I still have my FG-180 from 20 years ago. Good luck on your search, and keep listening for the good stuff.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

So much of this makes sense. I recently sold a very expensive guitar and purchased a pretty inexpensive replacement. I expected some sort of disappointment, but I'm continually delighted at how much I enjoy this cheapo guitar. If it has the feel and the sound, then what more is there to it?!

Since you knew Elliott, I will divulge that I am in awe of him as a person and musician. I've read a zillion interviews, read that biography that came out a few years ago and watched the youtube concerts and documentaries. I used to live in Portland and would hear his songs in my head when I'd see the signs for the upcoming Rose Parade or cross Alameda St. I saw him in Boston around 2000 or so and was sorry to see he didn't seem great. But that was a tough night, and he went on to make more beautiful music.

You mentioned Everything Means Nothing To Me, which is one of my favorite of his songs. I did notice the recording quality and overall production of that album bumped up for some reason. I imagine it had to do with the Good Will Hunting success. More than the guitar, I'm sure just whatever recording gear and studio (apartment bedroom??) in combination with the Yamaha helped sculpt that early sound. I was in high school when Either/Or and xo came out and still find those among my favorite of his work. Then came basement on a Hill... I didn't like it much the first or tenth time I listened much. But after that, somehow I've come to adore that album and consider it his true "opus." Sheer brilliance that sounds like no one else on the planet. I was really sorry to hear he was in a bad way during the making of that one, because something about him is so endearing.

You mentioned the J-50. I had read he was gifted a Hummingbird that was used on that last album. Did you notice him using the J-50 quite a bit as well? Any idea which tracks, if any come to mind? I will say, after you mentioned Everything Means Nothing, the next track that jumped to mind as totally innovative is A Distorted Reality is Now a Necessity to Be Free. I find that song so haunting and brilliant. Probably not as technically sophisticated as the one you mentioned, but jaw-droopingly good. I've never tried to play that one, but I do play Kings Crossing on my acoustic quite a bit. Boy, I do miss his music--or, should I say, the music he'd have gone on to make. I heard a Mary Lou Lord interview in which she states how certain she is that, had Kurt Cobain hung around longer, he and Elliott would have inevitably met and probably made music together (based on her knowledge of them both). Too many bright stars went out too early.

Thanks for all your posts!

[GuestIN]

Originally Posted by zoopeda

So much of this makes sense. I recently sold a very expensive guitar and purchased a pretty inexpensive replacement. I expected some sort of disappointment, but I'm continually delighted at how much I enjoy this cheapo guitar. If it has the feel and the sound, then what more is there to it?!

Since you knew Elliott, I will divulge that I am in awe of him as a person and musician. I've read a zillion interviews, read that biography that came out a few years ago and watched the youtube concerts and documentaries. I used to live in Portland and would hear his songs in my head when I'd see the signs for the upcoming Rose Parade or cross Alameda St. I saw him in Boston around 2000 or so and was sorry to see he didn't seem great. But that was a tough night, and he went on to make more beautiful music.

You mentioned Everything Means Nothing To Me, which is one of my favorite of his songs. I did notice the recording quality and overall production of that album bumped up for some reason. I imagine it had to do with the Good Will Hunting success. More than the guitar, I'm sure just whatever recording gear and studio (apartment bedroom??) in combination with the Yamaha helped sculpt that early sound. I was in high school when Either/Or and xo came out and still find those among my favorite of his work. Then came basement on a Hill... I didn't like it much the first or tenth time I listened much. But after that, somehow I've come to adore that album and consider it his true "opus." Sheer brilliance that sounds like no one else on the planet. I was really sorry to hear he was in a bad way during the making of that one, because something about him is so endearing.

You mentioned the J-50. I had read he was gifted a Hummingbird that was used on that last album. Did you notice him using the J-50 quite a bit as well? Any idea which tracks, if any come to mind? I will say, after you mentioned Everything Means Nothing, the next track that jumped to mind as totally innovative is A Distorted Reality is Now a Necessity to Be Free. I find that song so haunting and brilliant. Probably not as technically sophisticated as the one you mentioned, but jaw-droopingly good. I've never tried to play that one, but I do play Kings Crossing on my acoustic quite a bit. Boy, I do miss his music--or, should I say, the music he'd have gone on to make. I heard a Mary Lou Lord interview in which she states how certain she is that, had Kurt Cobain hung around longer, he and Elliott would have inevitably met and probably made music together (based on her knowledge of them both). Too many bright stars went out too early.

Thanks for all your posts!

Zoopeda:

That was a lovely reminiscence of what Elliott meant (and still means) to you. It’s difficult to even respond to the emotional territory you speak of, regarding Elliott, other than I get it. I moved to Los Angeles because of him, and I left Los Angeles maybe six months after he passed. I wasn’t in a healthy state then either, so what seemed like erratic behavior to others, I wouldn’t even notice. I did notice the whole world flip the moment he was gone, even before we got the phone call. We were rehearsing, and I just felt it. So, a lot of those personal connections that you have to his music, were cut off and cauterized for me, in an instant. I know I still have those connections, too — they’re just inaccessible.

As to “what he could have done,” I don’t wonder about those things. I think Elliott gave the world more than enough. Same with Kurt Cobain. I think the world forgets: Art is hard. Mental illness is even harder. I’ve struggled with it my whole life. I’m Bi-polar 1, and have spent much of my life in mental facilities, trying to find the right med combination, and really working hard at figuring out the terrain of who the hell I am. It’s very hard creating real art when you’re fighting mental illness. It’s amazing what Elliott and Kurt were able to create, in spite of their mental illness. As a kindred dog of death, I’m amazed at what Elliott did in his lifetime. But in no way am I glorifying anyone’s early departure, only that they don’t “owe us anymore.” We got more than we could have ever fathomed, and I count myself lucky to have licked the plate clean of everything he served up. Mary Lou I’m sure is right that Elliott and Kurt would have got along great. But I don’t really ponder those things.

As to the production on “Everything Means Nothing to Me,” it was essentially the same approach as on “XO” (both “Figure 8” and “XO” would have been DreamWorks money; separate from anything earned from “Goodwill Hunting”), with Rob Schnapf and Tom Rothrock producing both, mostly in the same studios around LA (Sonora, Capitol, Sunset Sound), but with the addition of Abbey Road on “Figure 8.” As to what guitars Elliott used on which songs, I have no clue. Rob is on Gearslutz from time to time, but who knows if he remembers or even wants to talk about it. Acoustics I remember were maybe a circa 1960 J-50, a mid 60’s J-45 with a skinny neck, I’m sure a 12-string of some sort, and who knows what else. At that point, things had reached an incredibly high level of sonic mirroring in the mix. One lead vocal might be panned 11 o’clock and then balanced by a J-45 at 4. Then the doubled lead would be placed somewhere to the right, and it might be balanced by a J-50 hard left. And they would just build up the mix by doubling something, finding an open space in the stereo field, put it there, and then cross balance it with the next thing. I think both “XO” and “Figure 8” are sonic and artistic masterpieces. But I have no idea what guitars were used where, I can only speculate.

As to “. . . Basement on the Hill,” we’re not talking about a proper release, at all. Luckily, Rob (and Joanna Bolme) were called in to make sense of what Elliott was working on at the end. This album was the heartbreaker for me because every word I had lived. This was recorded at Elliott’s studio, entirely, I believe. Maybe he recorded some at Jon Brion’s, but I can’t say for sure. Elliott had his famed Trident A-Range at this point, so I know he had endless hours to record and experiment with an endless stream of ideas. David McConnell is the only guy who could tell you for sure any details of those songs, as he was the only one working with Elliott for the bulk of those songs. It is a raw, thrashingly beautiful look into a fully-formed artist trying to keep 15 plates balanced at once. And it felt wrong to me to see that, to hear that. “This isn’t the album. He wasn’t finished.”

But, you know what? He was finished. And he IS finished.

Elliott was so clever with all his lyrics, but he had two lines on that album that ring the bells for anyone who has suffered with mental illness:

And I can deal with some psychic pain
If it'll slow down my higher brain

They’re words that most would gloss over. But he knew how loaded those words were; how many people would secretly identify with those words. That was, I don’t know. It just meant a lot to me.

How long have I been writing? On a guitar forum. Sorry. I should probably hop over to another thread. This is the first and only thread I’ve posted on, and I feel like I’ve completely highjacked the OP’s question. All apologies. Going to sleep here. I may have to erase this in the morning. Hopefully, I mentioned a guitar at least once. If not — banish me. I know the drill.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

[zoopeda]

Originally Posted by I. Newhart

Zoopeda:

That was a lovely reminiscence of what Elliott meant (and still means) to you. It’s difficult to even respond to the emotional territory you speak of, regarding Elliott, other than I get it. I moved to Los Angeles because of him, and I left Los Angeles maybe six months after he passed. I wasn’t in a healthy state then either, so what seemed like erratic behavior to others, I wouldn’t even notice. I did notice the whole world flip the moment he was gone, even before we got the phone call. We were rehearsing, and I just felt it. So, a lot of those personal connections that you have to his music, were cut off and cauterized for me, in an instant. I know I still have those connections, too — they’re just inaccessible.

As to “what he could have done,” I don’t wonder about those things. I think Elliott gave the world more than enough. Same with Kurt Cobain. I think the world forgets: Art is hard. Mental illness is even harder. I’ve struggled with it my whole life. I’m Bi-polar 1, and have spent much of my life in mental facilities, trying to find the right med combination, and really working hard at figuring out the terrain of who the hell I am. It’s very hard creating real art when you’re fighting mental illness. It’s amazing what Elliott and Kurt were able to create, in spite of their mental illness. As a kindred dog of death, I’m amazed at what Elliott did in his lifetime. But in no way am I glorifying anyone’s early departure, only that they don’t “owe us anymore.” We got more than we could have ever fathomed, and I count myself lucky to have licked the plate clean of everything he served up. Mary Lou I’m sure is right that Elliott and Kurt would have got along great. But I don’t really ponder those things.

As to the production on “Everything Means Nothing to Me,” it was essentially the same approach as on “XO” (both “Figure 8” and “XO” would have been DreamWorks money; separate from anything earned from “Goodwill Hunting”), with Rob Schnapf and Tom Rothrock producing both, mostly in the same studios around LA (Sonora, Capitol, Sunset Sound), but with the addition of Abbey Road on “Figure 8.” As to what guitars Elliott used on which songs, I have no clue. Rob is on Gearslutz from time to time, but who knows if he remembers or even wants to talk about it. Acoustics I remember were maybe a circa 1960 J-50, a mid 60’s J-45 with a skinny neck, I’m sure a 12-string of some sort, and who knows what else. At that point, things had reached an incredibly high level of sonic mirroring in the mix. One lead vocal might be panned 11 o’clock and then balanced by a J-45 at 4. Then the doubled lead would be placed somewhere to the right, and it might be balanced by a J-50 hard left. And they would just build up the mix by doubling something, finding an open space in the stereo field, put it there, and then cross balance it with the next thing. I think both “XO” and “Figure 8” are sonic and artistic masterpieces. But I have no idea what guitars were used where, I can only speculate.

As to “. . . Basement on the Hill,” we’re not talking about a proper release, at all. Luckily, Rob (and Joanna Bolme) were called in to make sense of what Elliott was working on at the end. This album was the heartbreaker for me because every word I had lived. This was recorded at Elliott’s studio, entirely, I believe. Maybe he recorded some at Jon Brion’s, but I can’t say for sure. Elliott had his famed Trident A-Range at this point, so I know he had endless hours to record and experiment with an endless stream of ideas. David McConnell is the only guy who could tell you for sure any details of those songs, as he was the only one working with Elliott for the bulk of those songs. It is a raw, thrashingly beautiful look into a fully-formed artist trying to keep 15 plates balanced at once. And it felt wrong to me to see that, to hear that. “This isn’t the album. He wasn’t finished.”

But, you know what? He was finished. And he IS finished.

Elliott was so clever with all his lyrics, but he had two lines on that album that ring the bells for anyone who has suffered with mental illness:

And I can deal with some psychic pain
If it'll slow down my higher brain

They’re words that most would gloss over. But he knew how loaded those words were; how many people would secretly identify with those words. That was, I don’t know. It just meant a lot to me.

How long have I been writing? On a guitar forum. Sorry. I should probably hop over to another thread. This is the first and only thread I’ve posted on, and I feel like I’ve completely highjacked the OP’s question. All apologies. Going to sleep here. I may have to erase this in the morning. Hopefully, I mentioned a guitar at least once. If not — banish me. I know the drill.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

Wow, there’s a lot there! I didn’t mean to suggest he owed us anything else. I just like a happy ending sometimes and just wish he didn’t have to suffer so much in the process. But the ending is happy in the sense that we’re left with all of his music. I am not at all an engineer, but it’s interesting to me that the same people and approaches were used on xo and figure 8. To me figure 8 just sounds, different. Xo still had that raw transitional feeling. Maybe fewer instruments or just a more raw mix. Independence Day, and baby Britain, just sound a little earlier. So sweet. I like figure 8 maybe just as much, busomething about the production sounds more polished or something. And I can imagine how hard it is for you to hear basement. It may not be all his, but there’s a lot of him on there that sure is beautiful and such complex songwriting. Really pretty. I’ll have to read what a trident a range is. Anything specific that machine gave to those tracks?

Ps, wow, 85 pages peppered w Elliott’s producer Rob S. All about SOUND. Thanks!
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear...b-schnapf.html