Best acoustic sound

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by Doug Michaels

I recently purchased a Shelter Jam 400 after a lot of research. Though it is a great piece of gear, it has a horn instead of a tweeter and the horn doesn't cut it in my opinion. I know others love the Jam 400.

I am selling my Jam 400 on this forum right now. I am looking for something with a better treble sound but still good bass and mids.

I have tried nearly all acoustic guitar amps except Daedalus. I need something very portable, like a combo amp, since I move my stuff around for gigging a lot. I could go rack mount but prefer not to.

I do plug into a PA often but still want this to be powerful enough to fill a room with 200 people. I like parametric eq but not required. I like sweepable mids. I like a lot of headroom. I like tweeters!! And I like not too heavy, under 40 pounds. I like one piece. I solo gig with no roadies.

I currently am using my Fishman SA220 and its good stuff but I know there is better. Maybe the Shelter Unico. Maybe Daedalus.

Note....I will be using this for vocals as well and it has to do a good job on that. Need two XLR's and two separate guitar inputs, high gain.

I use a Allen and Heath ZED10FX mixer and everything goes through that including vocals, two guitars, one drum pedal(Beat Buddy).

Thanks very much for any ideas here. Only high end please, not Genz Benz or Roland, or Fender, or others made primarily for good but not great sound.

You might think I am snobbish requiring great sound. Contrary to what some friends might say, I am not. But I play for a sophisticated audience that wants good sound, clear, bi-amped, well eq'd and sounding very much like a digital recording live.

I apologize for the long post here. Had to get it all out.

I agree with the others who have suggested that you might be expecting too much from a single combo amp. If you need to fill a room with music for 200 people, you should consider some kind of small PA system--and you can go for the highest quality you can afford, of course, while keeping an eye on portability, and etc.

One thing you might encounter--and it's just a thought. I don't know how you were listening to your Jam 400 for evaluative purposes, but you should be aware, in case you're not, that the horn that it has is designed to project sound at some distance, and will only sound its best when you're at that distance--more or less where most of your audience will be, not where you at home would likely be for testing or where you would be on stage near the amp. The tweeters you find in most good combo amps, on the other hand, do sound good close up, and they're weaker for projecting sound out into a larger room.

So at least consider that--if you haven't already--before you sell the Jam 400 and as you consider your other options.

I use my combo amp less and less for all but the smallest gigs. My small PA sounds better, it's more flexible for coverage, and it sounds better "out in the room." I use a ZED10FX and one or a pair of RCF 310a powered speakers. They sound very good to my ears for acoustic music, but if you've got the cash there are many better, high-end options out there. Get the best speakers you can afford and at the size and weight you're prepared to carry!

And as Bobby suggests, make sure the rest of your chain is equal to that level of best!

Louis

[Doug Michaels]

More great ideas. Thanks so much for the help on all this. I feel that you guys are getting what I need for my gigging. Love that photo of the room. Looks like a sound nightmare for bouncing off the walls and ceiling.

More ideas are good for me. I like trying out several things and I will definitely be trying out these ideas. Thanks again.

[Bobby1note]

Doug,

There are several ways of getting into P/A systems, and it depends on what your priorities are, as well as practical analysis of where you're heading.(long-term goals).

When I read your first post, I got the impression that you're willing to part with a tidy sum of cash to accomplish your goal (best sound "possible"/200 people), and I mention that solely because I know what's available out there, and, I also realize that many folks who are getting into P/A's for the first time, aren't generally aware of products that are marketed to audio professionals, vs those which are marketed to the masses. Fact is, the sky's the limit with this stuff, and you can easily part with $30,000. just getting into a compact system with 2 mains and a pair of subs. Brands like L'Acoustics, d&BAudiotechnik, NEXO, MeyerSound etc, truly rank as the "best possible", but they're not very visible in the consumer/pro-sumer market. Heck, if you've got the budget (and the clientele), then go for it, but fact is, there's plenty of terrific lower-cost pro/semi-pro level systems out there that can easily handle your needs.(limited frequency bandwidth/vox and guitar). The variable here is room and crowd-size, as well as crowd behavior. (noisy bars and restaurants vs quiet recital halls).

One strategy for starting out might be getting into a system that is scalable, and use that as the building-blocks for growing a system that will eventually cover all the larger venues and outdoor shows you expect to encounter. Renting additional speakers "as needed" is yet another strategy.

Probably the most visible market segment, is the M.I.-grade consumer/pro-sumer offerings that you'll generally find in music-stores. You'll generally find these speakers going for anywhere from $499.-$1299. That's a market segment that can offer a lot of bang-for-the-buck, as long as you're careful in how you operate them. You have to be very wary of the marketing claims however. Ignore "watt ratings", and pretty well most every other "spec" that you find in this segment. Most of the specs you'll see there, are based on peak values, vs broadband performance, and often, none of the "measurement" conditions are ever mentioned. You might see claims such as 128dB continuous, yet you'll have no idea how that loudspeaker was measured(if at all, some specs are "calculated), or the bandwidth that reached that level, as well as the accompanying distortion spec. You can for example, measure the same loudspeaker in free-space, 1/2 space, 1/4 space, 1/8th space, and each space reduction will yield a 3dB increase. Unless it's clearly stated in the specs, it's usually marketing B.S.

In that M.I.-grade segment, you'll generally want to check out the reliability and post-sale service experiences that others may have encountered. Thermal shutdown for example, can kill a show pretty quickly. As for auditioning this segment, you'll want to listen to them at "working" levels, and you'll want to listen from different angles (on/off axis response). Basically, you'll also want to be listening for how they sound when pushed. The actual operating level of a speaker is not only controlled by the output-level knob, but rather, the point just below the level where audible distortion starts to occur. On the subject of construction, a well constructed speaker cabinet will be rigid and inert,,, free of cabinet resonance. The construction is more important than the materials used. You may also want to consider a multi-purpose cabinet design, which would allow you to use your speakers for FOH, or, as floor monitors.

Another aspect you'll have to consider is portability. How will you be transporting this gear? How many trips from the vehicle, to the stage (and back). How easily can they be set up on stands? If they're powered speakers, will I have trouble finding adequate power from wall-outlets, etc. For most small gigs where a single 120v outlet may be the only readily accessible power available, I'd much rather go with an efficient loudspeaker design. (may have less claimed "watts", but more useable dB's per watt).

How did I get started with P/A's? Well, like you, my first P/A was an acoustic combo-amp. (AER Compact 60/2). When it came time to expand the system, I hung around the pro-sound forums, and did a LOT of reading, and asked a LOT of questions. When the time came to take the plunge, I chose a mixer that had great EQ capabilities, plus enough inputs to cover any situation I'd ever find myself in (playing with others/more instruments,,,especially for drums which alone, can require 8 or more mics), and, direct-outs (for recording). That mixer was an Allen & Heath MixWiz3 16;2,,, a workhorse if ever there was one. I almost immediately bought a second smaller mixer, and that was for several reasons. The smaller mixer would be fine for my solo acoustic gigs, and be able to handle unexpected "guest" musicians sitting in,,, plus, I could also use that smaller mixer as a sub-mixer along with my MixWiz, if ever I found that the 16 channels of the MixWiz wasn't enough. I felt that the Soundcraft EFX-8 was the best solution for me, since it was easily transportable, with little to sacrifice in terms of sound-quality, and excellent reliability. Here I am eight years later, and I still use those mixers (along with four others/ digital and analog/ up to 24 channels).

For loudspeakers, I wanted "powered" cabinets, bi-amped, with a built-in HPF (hi-pass filter). At that time, I felt the Yorkville NX55P offered the best after-sale service and support, plus they sounded great for solo/duo acoustic shows, especially when used without a sub-woofer. (good low-frequency extension). To this day, I have never experienced a failure with those boxes.(or any other Yorkville box). A 12"/1" speaker was my preferred choice, primarily for vocal clarity. I also added a pair of compact subs, namely the 15" Yorkville Elite LS720P's. They're tight and clean as can be, and the portability is great. I can easily fit a pair on the back seat of my car.

Over the years, I've added a lot more NX55P's (eight in all, for monitors and FOH), and many other 15" boxes boxes, including 15" 3-ways and larger 18"/1500w subs, but my original system is still my most used system.

Price-point for the two 12" mains and two compact subs, plus a 16 channel mixer was roughly $4,000-$4500. for what I consider to be a decent yet serious entry-level P/A, and it's been money well-spent IMO. Mind you, that's just the starting point. (cables, snakes, mic-stands, speaker-stands, roughly 70 mic's, D.I.'s, lights, etc). It adds up quickly.

Enjoy the hunt!!

[alohachris]

Aloha Doug,

+1 on Daedalus Speakers. Lou Hinkley makes the best speakers in the world for giggers - by far! I've never played or heard better acoustic sound in 57 years of gigging. For ten years, my pair of custom Koa W-803's, combined w/ a great signal chain that includes an SPS-1 preamp, has given me all the quality & control I need in every gigging situation/venue. My self-made guitars & ukes love Daedalus! I agree w/ sdelsolray on this one.

Also agree w/ Bobby. A single source speaker/amp cannot give you the penetration, coverage or control you need to play anything but the smallest gig. For 200 people, use a small PA. I bring one 803 to small gigs & use like an amp. For larger gigs, bringing two 803's is worth the schlepp to me - and I'm 66.

All the best, Doug.

alohachris

[DjFuzzyMcPickle]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

I totally agree here. It seems to me that a lot of your problems could be fixed with a decent powered PA speaker or two, and a more flexible EQ than what's on your mixer. QSC K-10 and a DTAR Equinox perhaps? I'm using a pair of K-10's with the new QSC Touchmix mixer. I'm still in the honeymoon period, with the mixer, but with little effort I can make that rig sound any way I want it to sound. It is amazing gear, and I don't think there's an all-in-one acoustic amp that can touch it.

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Doing all that with a single combo amp will be tough. Perhaps adding one of the AER powered PA speakers on a stick to a Domino would get you the needed coverage. But you're still stuck with having to access the Domino to change controls. A full Bose would certainly work with an external mixer, if you like the sound of that system. A standard PA would also work.

Going a Daedalus route is also possible, say a pair of W803 (3 way passive), add an SPS-1 to the one you already have (and have Greg mod one of them to allow for a 4x2 topology), add a nice power amp (e.g., Bryston 4BSST), perhaps an effects unit, perhaps a small powered monitor if needed, and you'll be in sonic heaven. Big schelping factor though.

Originally Posted by akafloyd

It seems to me that since you're already using the mixer a good quality powered speaker would serve nicely.

Originally Posted by lschwart

I agree with the others who have suggested that you might be expecting too much from a single combo amp. If you need to fill a room with music for 200 people, you should consider some kind of small PA system--and you can go for the highest quality you can afford, of course, while keeping an eye on portability, and etc.

One thing you might encounter--and it's just a thought. I don't know how you were listening to your Jam 400 for evaluative purposes, but you should be aware, in case you're not, that the horn that it has is designed to project sound at some distance, and will only sound its best when you're at that distance--more or less where most of your audience will be, not where you at home would likely be for testing or where you would be on stage near the amp. The tweeters you find in most good combo amps, on the other hand, do sound good close up, and they're weaker for projecting sound out into a larger room.

So at least consider that--if you haven't already--before you sell the Jam 400 and as you consider your other options.

I use my combo amp less and less for all but the smallest gigs. My small PA sounds better, it's more flexible for coverage, and it sounds better "out in the room." I use a ZED10FX and one or a pair of RCF 310a powered speakers. They sound very good to my ears for acoustic music, but if you've got the cash there are many better, high-end options out there. Get the best speakers you can afford and at the size and weight you're prepared to carry!

And as Bobby suggests, make sure the rest of your chain is equal to that level of best!

Louis

Agree with all of these. As someone who has done a TON of live sound work, worked with over 50 different venue PA systems, own over 50K in S& L alone, 25+ yr player (truthfully just starting to play live myself the last couple of years), the most important aspect in a different way of saying it is imply this. it's like asking to buy a vehicle that gets 40+ MPG, can off road like a jeep, go as fast as a corvette and seat 8 comfortably like a Suburban....just too many wants out of the Schertler amp. Which IMHO is a GREAT sounding amp. If you need to fill a room with GREAT sound, a real PA of some level is the way to go. I know of few if any amps are going to give you that level of sound level with pure clean sound that will fill that size and space. Remember...besides all the elements mentioned, even if the room is dead quiet. bodies absorb sound just like ceiling height, room surfaces etc all affect sound. I wouldn't be selling that Jam 400 yet...it's a great amp. You just need to re-adjust your thought process on sound spl's etc.

[coconuts]

Originally Posted by DjFuzzyMcPickle

Agree with all of these. As someone who has done a TON of live sound work, worked with over 50 different venue PA systems, own over 50K in S& L alone, 25+ yr player (truthfully just starting to play live myself the last couple of years), the most important aspect in a different way of saying it is imply this. it's like asking to buy a vehicle that gets 40+ MPG, can off road like a jeep, go as fast as a corvette and seat 8 comfortably like a Suburban....just too many wants out of the Schertler amp. Which IMHO is a GREAT sounding amp. If you need to fill a room with GREAT sound, a real PA of some level is the way to go. I know of few if any amps are going to give you that level of sound level with pure clean sound that will fill that size and space. Remember...besides all the elements mentioned, even if the room is dead quiet. bodies absorb sound just like ceiling height, room surfaces etc all affect sound. I wouldn't be selling that Jam 400 yet...it's a great amp. You just need to re-adjust your thought process on sound spl's etc.

Absolutely agree.

It all boils down to consideration of these elements (just my opinion)
Headroom to handle room noise and acoustics
Best setup for even quality of sound distribution for the audience at different SPLs as needed.
Best setup so you can hear yourself and the sound YOU need.
Easiest to setup and operate without a soundman.
How many players / vocalists

If you are playing for 200 people you will need your sound up in the air whether you are solo or with others and regardless of the room configuration (IMHO). I don't like to use a PA system for my monitor, but prefer it is dedicated for room sound because experience tells me that I can get the best sound to everyone's ears with this setup while disregarding whether I can hear it as a monitor. Then my amp is not going to be a feedback problem when trying to reach the SPL I need up front and my PA would not pose a feedback problem since it is not my monitor.

It is also very difficult to just use a single combo amp or PA for room and monitoring when two or more are playing since what I want to hear may be different than what my playing partner wants to hear, which is different than what satisfies the audience. Remember, one wants to hear themselves louder than the others in general while the audience wants to hear the perfect mix.

So in many small situations, the combo is fine, but your assessment of the critical elements and EXPERIENCE will determine when the PA needs to be brought in. Have someone whose ears you trust listen to your sound from different parts of the room during the performance. This will be the only feedback you want during a performance!

[Doug Michaels]

More great ideas from you guys. Thanks. I am leaning towards a PA but it has to be light weight and small enough to be very portable. As you know from reading this thread, it also has to be high end.
Again i play acoustic guitars and sing, using a pedal board, a BeatBuddy drum pedal (new on the market and awesome). I use high end miss, cables, pedals, guitars, etc.

Any thoughts on small but high quality PA speakers but they have to be bi-amp'd and powered.

And thanks very much for all the great responses to this thread. As I stated in my original post, I play for very particular guests on a 220 ft. cruise ship that only caters to the rich and famous. Yes, its a great gig. But these folks expect high end sound as many are in the musical field.

Thanks

Doug

[coconuts]

If it were me, I would bring a Bose system - L1 model 2 with B2 bass and tonematch mixer and your guitar amp. The bose compact may suffice, but you want them to think you're rich and famous too. Not sure, but the bose tower may need sandbags so it doesn't fall over if the waves get big.

[Rick Shepherd]

Another thumbs up for the Daedalus PA setup. Awesome!

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by Doug Michaels

More great ideas from you guys. Thanks. I am leaning towards a PA but it has to be light weight and small enough to be very portable. As you know from reading this thread, it also has to be high end.
Again i play acoustic guitars and sing, using a pedal board, a BeatBuddy drum pedal (new on the market and awesome). I use high end miss, cables, pedals, guitars, etc.

Any thoughts on small but high quality PA speakers but they have to be bi-amp'd and powered.

And thanks very much for all the great responses to this thread. As I stated in my original post, I play for very particular guests on a 220 ft. cruise ship that only caters to the rich and famous. Yes, its a great gig. But these folks expect high end sound as many are in the musical field.

Thanks

Doug

When you say "it has to be high end," how much money does that realistically mean you're prepared to spend?

Louis

[Doug Michaels]

No, I am not rich nor famous. But I would spend $2500 on two powered bi-amped speakers. I have the poles for them already. And I have other stuff to serve as a monitor.
Maybe the Bose would tip over in some big troughs or I could just nail it to the floor of the ship....
I will check all this out and again, thanks thanks thanks. I do like having multiple possibilities to pick from and the responses have provided that big time.

Great help to me

Doug

[Doug Michaels]

Ok, so here is where I am at on all this and all you who have contributed to this thread, thanks mucho.

I have two options. One is to go with the Daedalus S81 speaker with an appropriate amp rack mounted. I will start with ONE S81 and add later.

The second option is to go with TWO AER Compac 60s on poles for dispersion. I have a non-powered mixer already that I like so I would not need to reach the controls of the AER amps.

Any suggestions or more great info or feedback on these two choices. I am 65 years old and though fairly fit, I like light loads and the amp plus my Pendulum SPS-1 in a rack could be quite heavy. I would use a cart of course but may have to lift it at times. Two Compac 60's are easy to lift and move around. I just need the sound to be excellent with two of them for crowds of 200 or less.

Which way to go?????

Thanks again and again

Doug

[alohachris]

Aloha Doug,

My first inclination was to go w/ a pair of the less expensive Daedalus S-81 two-way speakers as well. Great sound for solo acoustic guitar. However, Daedalus genius Lou Hinkle, Sdelsolray, Rick Shepherd & others dissuaded me away from the S-81's & towards the three-way Daedalus W-803's.

http://www.daedalusmusic.com/w803.html

The main reason is that I sing & often have others sit-in at my gigs, requiring the three-way design. Sometimes bass & percussion sit-in too. The second reason was that at the time, I was playing a lot of outdoor hotel lanai gigs in Waikiki & other properties around here. The larger W-803's provide better coverage & penetration for that application.

So I sent some real nice Hawaiian acacia Koa to Lou & he made me my dream speakers. They work great in every situation from smallest, quietest restaurant or house concert, to outdoor parties, even for crowds in an auditorium up to around 1,500 people. Never heard better!

They are floor-monitor shaped (not rectangular which can be more awkward), weigh just 41 lbs., & so are relatively easy to handle & schlep, & to lift up on sticks. They come w/ strong protective covers (mine are still nearly flawless after hundreds of gigs). I use an Odyssey BR-418, 4-space, rack gig-bag for my SPS-1, TC M2000 FX unit, & two-space Parasound 2125 power amp (recommended & purchased through Lou for those 803's.

The BR 418 rack-bag has its own wheels, retractable handle & tough outside protective case which makes it easy to schlepp & it's very durable. Roll it into the gig, unzip the two ends, connect the mic & speakers, play, then zip 'em up when finished & roll it out - not hard at all.

With the gear inside, & its plywood innards, that unit is not lightweight (around 40 lbs.), but I find it very easy to move to & from my house in a Honda w/ the other stuff. Ha, I used to carry it 500' from my car in the dark on a narrow path through a wild pig-infested rainforest to my old mountain home for years - no problems.

I leave the gear connected inside the rack-bag all the time (w/Mogami Quad gold cables). All I have to do at the gig is connect the vocal mic cable & the two speaker cables & that's it.

RE: The Bose L1 System. In a quiet, conventionally-shaped space (like a small studio concert) it is an excellent rig - especially if you have two of them in stereo. I've used it onstage successfully in those settings. But it has an etheric, indirect kind of coverage that I found had limitations at some of the larger & louder gigs I do.

However, at one gig for three years, @ a wine/cheese bar full of cackling women, a single L1 System w/dual subs could never give me the coverage, penetration or monitor-capability I needed when the crowd got close, danced or grew louder. I even built a raised stage for it, to no avail! I tried to talk the owner into a second one for better coverage in the L-shaped, bright room w/ high ceilings but he wouldn't go for it. He also wouldn't allow any musicians to play through anything else so we were stuck. It was very tough to hear ourselves play when I'd play in a duo w/ my friend. We "guessed" a lot with that system in such a setting. So I found it to have limitations in terms of where it is useful. No problems ever w/ my Pendulum/ Daedalus live signal chain.

So, for an outdoor gig, for a nice sized crowd on a windy deck, I cannot recommend the Bose L-1 System or other faux line array systems that are affordable to us giggers.

RE: Custom Daedalus vs. two AER 60's? It's not close at all, Doug - by any measure. Daedalus wins every time! You already have the SPS-1 which is far superior to any of the controls on any AER model, right? And they are not that lightweight either. The custom Daed's are unhyped, made for acoustic instruments, handcrafted in the USA vs. mass produced abroad. You should play recorded music you know well through the Daed's, Doug. Reveals stuff I never new existed on tracks I've known for 50 years! Daeds are clear, detailed, natural & "easy," do not create ear fatigue & perfect for acoustic musicians.

I would call Lou @ Daedalus in Bellingham, WA. He answers the phone, is very knowledgable, great sense of humor, has recorded music as a player himself & he EQ's his pro level speakers for the acoustic guitar. Every custom speaker is all hand-made in Washington State! Dovetailed corners in AAA grade, figured, fine hardwoods, w/ the best Swiss, Russian & US electronics in the world for things like cross-overs & made w/o production or qualitative compromises.

Hey Doug, I waited til I was in my mid-50's to finally gig through the best signal chain I could afford. It was then or never. I Wish I'd done it 25 years before. Acoustic giggers never think they can allow themselves to do that for some reason. It's not about spending money, it's all about results, quality & having the right tools for every gig - which your current gig requires, right?

Don't do that or hesitate, Doug. Give Lou a call & tell him I sent you. He's a very approachable person & he makes these amazing things. He has great ideas for what works with his wonder boxes & he can get you deals on signal chain parts. Plus, Lou is always rated among the Top Five globally for custom audiophile speaker systems. Ya may have to talk him into making the W-803's again. But I'd plead my case if I were you.

All the best, Doug!

alohachris

[coconuts]

The bose tower system I suggested is optimal (but pricier ). Other suggestions daedelus and aer and other powered PAs will put out a great sound, but then you have tripods ( 1 or 2). So if you rent or buy becomes a consideration and stage space (2 tripods or one tower) becomes another consideration. All choices will do the job, but all choices have different sound management so it is what you are comfortable without requiring a soundman. A savvy musician clued in to the sound can handle up to 2000 audience (may be stretching it a bit here bro.. LOL) In fact, if you get larger gigs (or noisier environments), the bose system may fall short in those situations. I tend to demand space and run mixer, power amp, parametric eqs, and 2 passive speakers on tripods because I can put out up to 2400 watts of awesome sound, but in this situation one can afford to downsize since amplified power isn't an issue. Is this a marketing situation? If lucrative gigs may be obtained, don't let cost get in the way. It should be viewed as an investment. Good luck. If you have the sound from pickup to amp and the talent, you won't go wrong with any suggestions i've read here.

[ricdoug]

Contact my friend Jon Bart of Quiet Voice Audio, Doug. He and his wife Karen are our age and they have several decades in high end sound, both from the engineering and performance perspectives:

http://quietvoiceaudio.com/

http://quietvoiceaudio.com/contact

Quiet Voice Audio - 800-350-8218 - California Contractor License #996557

You can use my name, Ric Douglas, if you want. It makes no difference to me. I do not collect referals. Jon is a true high end professional audio expert. Give Jon a ring and make your own decisions. Ric