6-string banjo?

[tstrahle]

Originally Posted by GerryinAZ

The banjo in the pic above is quite modern,. The banjo originates in Africa and was nothing more than a gourd with a stick stuck in it and stripped bark strings.

Guitar-Banjo... Nah. Stick to playin' yer guitars.

6 stringed banjo played like a banjo is supposed to be played;

http://youtu.be/O-SLSZ-9748

You bet!

Dang, Sarah Jarosz is great. I've done a little claw hammer here at home, alone, with no one listening. It's definitely it's own thing.

[GerryinAZ]

Originally Posted by tstrahle

Dang, Sarah Jarosz is great. I've done a little claw hammer here at home, alone, with no one listening. It's definitely it's own thing.

Yes, she is quite something isn't she? I have known her as a trendsetter with the octave mandolin, but only recently have heard her venturing into clawhammer. When you have the mojo she has I guess you can pretty much make anything with strings on it sound good.

[wcap]

I'm one of those annoying 5-string banjo players who has some snobbish tendencies against other forms of banjo.... simply because 5-string banjos offer some very unique opportunities given the small intervals between the strings, and given the 5th string, which is synchronous with the first string past the 5th fret (in standard G tuning anyway). Also, I sometimes see guitar players getting interested in a 6 string banjo mostly because they think it would be easier to adjust to, not necessarily realizing that it is basically a different instrument, and that some of the major banjo sounds and playing styles they are accustomed to hearing (and that they might want to emulate) are fairly dependent upon the unique features of the 5-string - frailing is not going to work the same on a 6 string banjo, nor will melodic style banjo (the very fluid, smooth streams of notes that typify this style would be much harder to accomplish on an instrument tuned like a guitar), nor Scruggs style for that matter. Much of the charm and intrigue for me of a 5-string banjo comes from the opportunities provided by that short 5th string (and so I guess I tend to unfairly see other forms of banjo as inferior forms).

Having said this, I can definitely see how a 6 string banjo could be a great thing, but aside from the tonal similarity, I think it should be viewed as a being a rather different instrument (same for tenor banjos, which are very different beasts in their own right). I'm sure there are lots of really cool unique possibilities with a 6-string banjo, but 5-string, 6-string, and tenor banjos are not interchangeable.

As Wade mentioned, I think one of the really intriguing things about a 6-string banjo would be the low notes.... considerably lower than the lowest notes on a 5-string banjo. This gives a very cool sound that you won't get from a 5-string, which can be heard used to good advantage in this performance, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2maCN...endscreen&NR=1

In the above video, the 6 string banjo is sounding sort of like a bouzouki. It is a major, distinctive part of the overall sound here, and it is a sound that you would not get from a 5-string banjo. VERY nice - I REALLY like the sound of this 6-string banjo in this video. Actually, this 6 string in this video is capoed, but even capoed like this it still gives you some significantly lower notes than the lowest you can go on a 5-string banjo. I think this video alone makes a great case for getting a 6-string banjo!

If I had time and especially money, I'd be thrilled to get a 6 string banjo (though if I had to choose, I think I would go for a bouzouki first.... I've wanted to play bouzouki for decades!).

[wcap]

Originally Posted by GerryinAZ

The banjo in the pic above is quite modern,. The banjo originates in Africa and was nothing more than a gourd with a stick stuck in it and stripped bark strings.

Guitar-Banjo... Nah. Stick to playin' yer guitars.

6 stringed banjo played like a banjo is supposed to be played;

http://youtu.be/O-SLSZ-9748

You bet!

Very cool video, nice playing. And a very cool instrument!

But that is not a "standard" 6 string banjo. Yes, it has 6 strings, but one of them is shorter like the 5th string of a 5-string banjo. That is why her frailing/clawhammer playing actually sounds "authentic".

I wonder how she tunes this banjo. It looks very cool.... I think I'd really like one of these!

I wonder whether this was a custom build?

You know, it might be really cool to build a 7 string banjo. Yes, the neck would be getting a little wide, and maybe I wouldn't like that if I actually had it in my hands (but maybe no wider than a classical guitar neck???? I don't know). But one could have the best of both worlds. In standard tuning on a 5-string the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings are tuned the same as on a guitar. If one tuned the first four strings on my hypothetical 7-string banjo like a 5-string banjo in G tuning, one could then add two extra low strings tuned like the 5th and 6th strings of a guitar. Then tack on the 7th string starting at the 5th fret like on a 5-string, and tune it to a G like on a 5-string, and you'd have something really interesting (again, assuming the neck was not too outrageously wide). You could play anything on this that you'd play on a 5 string banjo (OK, you'd have to do some adjustments to technique due to the bigger reach between the 4th and 7th strings), and then have most of a guitar there as well, including those low notes.

[Doubleneck]

Seems Bluegrass has come to define the 5 string as the real banjo and it is really a recent form of music 40s 50s. I remember 20 years ago I bought a 5 string, bought Scruggs, book learned "The Ballad of Jed Clampett". Put it away and never played it again. Could not relate to Bluegrass music really. The six string to me is a much more flexible instrument and can melt into many styles. While I can appreciate frailing style as well, I can use the 6 to play my kind of music. Thank you Deering for kind of bringing out the best in the 6 and adding to its popularity. My serial number tells me quite a few have been sold.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Seems Bluegrass has come to define the 5 string as the real banjo and it is really a recent form of music 40s 50s. I remember 20 years ago I bought a 5 string, bought Scruggs, book learned "The Ballad of Jed Clampett". Put it away and never played it again. Could not relate to Bluegrass music really. The six string to me is a much more flexible instrument and can melt into many styles. While I can appreciate frailing style as well, I can use the 6 to play my kind of music. Thank you Deering for kind of bringing out the best in the 6 and adding to its popularity. My serial number tells me quite a few have been sold.

The 5-string banjo is good for a lot more things than bluegrass (or for the styles that came before bluegrass). Perhaps you are allready familiar with Bela Fleck, for example, but if you are are not, check out the links I recently posted in this other thread:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...6&postcount=20

The unique characteristics of a 5 string banjo (the 5th string, in particular) facilitate some very special things (similarly, the typical re-entrant tuning on a ukulele is responsible for some of the charm of a ukulele - I find fingerstyle on ukulele to be very reminiscent of 5-string banjo). The first piece I linked to, for example (the Bach piece) was practically made for 5-string banjo (I have not learned it yet (and indeed, maybe I never will find the time to do so), but I have worked on it a bit, and it really seems to flow nicely on a 5-string, and works in a way that it would not on guitar).

As I probably already mentioned somewhere in this thread (I'm forgetting now), 5-string banjos are wonderful for producing really smoothly flowing streams of notes. I have never heard the same sort of thing achieved on guitar - great guitar players can approximate it, but it never (or seldom) seems to quite match the smoothness that comes so naturally on a 5-string banjo.

That being said, I'm sure you are correct that your 6-string banjo is fantastic. I'd love to have one to experiment with. I'm sure I'd have a blast with it, and it would surely inspire some really nice new sounds different from anything I currently play either on 5-string banjo or on guitar.

[wcap]

Incidentally....

There was a cool story on NPR this past year about the origins of the banjo. As I recall, the researcher spent a lot of time in Africa and ended up tracing its origins to a particular traditional instrument (the name of which I can't remember) that is still played in certain areas of Africa today. As I recall, it has a shorter string on it like the 5-string banjo, suggesting that that characteristic of the 5-string goes way back to some of the early origins of the instrument. What I found most cool though was that the traditional way of playing this instrument was remarkably similar to frailing/clawhammer style banjo on a 5-string. I think the conclusion was that frailing/clawhammer styles probably are rooted in styles brought across the ocean by slaves from Africa. It was a fun story (I wish I had a recording of it).

Based on the above study one could indeed argue that the 5-string, with its short 5th string, is indeed more "authentic", or closer to its origins (though obviously the modern 5-string is quite different in many other ways). But this would be a silly point to fuss over. Just as language evolves and changes over time, so do musical instruments and the music we make with them. And the resulting diversity of instruments is great fun. I just wish there were more hours in the day to explore them all!

______________

Incidentally, I recently did some reading about bouzoukis - I got really curious about how this Greek instrument ended up being used in Irish music, and ended up learning all sorts of things about the origin of the instrument. I was surprised to learn that though the Greek bouzouki is based on some old traditional instruments, the bouzouki in its modern form is quite recent (1940's or so, if I am recalling correctly). And the use of the bouzouki in Irish music is much more recent (initiated by just one musician at first, not very many decades ago I gather, and then the instrument gradually became more popular in Irish music). So the modern banjo, in its various forms, and the modern bouzouki both appear to be quite recent innovations in the grand scheme of things.

Just curious: do any of you know how and when banjos became standard instruments for Irish music?

[GerryinAZ]

Originally Posted by wcap

Incidentally....

There was a cool story on NPR this past year about the origins of the banjo. As I recall, the researcher spent a lot of time in Africa and ended up tracing its origins to a particular traditional instrument (the name of which I can't remember) that is still played in certain areas of Africa today. As I recall, it has a shorter string on it like the 5-string banjo, suggesting that that characteristic of the 5-string goes way back to some of the early origins of the instrument. What I found most cool though was that the traditional way of playing this instrument was remarkably similar to frailing/clawhammer style banjo on a 5-string. I think the conclusion was that frailing/clawhammer styles probably are rooted in styles brought across the ocean by slaves from Africa. It was a fun story (I wish I had a recording of it).

Based on the above study one could indeed argue that the 5-string, with its short 5th string, is indeed more "authentic", or closer to its origins (though obviously the modern 5-string is quite different in many other ways). But this would be a silly point to fuss over. Just as language evolves and changes over time, so do musical instruments and the music we make with them. And the resulting diversity of instruments is great fun. I just wish there were more hours in the day to explore them all!

Hey! Why not kill two birds with one stone and have Bela Fleck take you through an extensive history of the banjo:

www.throwdownyourheart.com/

It's on Netflix if you have access. I've watched it 3, or 4 times. It's a very fun documentary.

______________

Originally Posted by wcap

Incidentally, I recently did some reading about bouzoukis - I got really curious about how this Greek instrument ended up being used in Irish music, and ended up learning all sorts of things about the origin of the instrument. I was surprised to learn that though the Greek bouzouki is based on some old traditional instruments, the bouzouki in its modern form is quite recent (1940's or so, if I am recalling correctly). And the use of the bouzouki in Irish music is much more recent (initiated by just one musician at first, not very many decades ago I gather, and then the instrument gradually became more popular in Irish music). So the modern banjo, in its various forms, and the modern bouzouki both appear to be quite recent innovations in the grand scheme of things.

Just curious: do any of you know how and when banjos became standard instruments for Irish music?

The Zouk and banjo weren't around during the advent of Irish Traditional Music. Donal Luny, of Planxty and The Bothy Band was that one musician who gets credit for introducing the Zouk to contemporary Irish Folk Music back in the 1960's. I've actually had the pleasure to sit in with Paddy Keenan on a few siesiuns, but have yet to meet Donal.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by GerryinAZ

Hey! Why not kill two birds with one stone and have Bela Fleck take you through an extensive history of the banjo:

www.throwdownyourheart.com/

It's on Netflix if you have access. I've watched it 3, or 4 times. It's a very fun documentary.

______________



The Zouk and banjo weren't around during the advent of Irish Traditional Music. Donal Luny, of Planxty and The Bothy Band was that one musician who gets credit for introducing the Zouk to contemporary Irish Folk Music back in the 1960's. I've actually had the pleasure to sit in with Paddy Keenan on a few siesiuns, but have yet to meet Donal.

Cool. We don't have Netflix at the moment, but this makes it tempting.

Regarding Irish music: Do you know anything about how and when banjos came onto the Irish scene?

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by wcap

Regarding Irish music: Do you know anything about how and when banjos came onto the Irish scene?

Well, Tommy Makem played five string banjo with the Clancy Brothers since at least the mid-to-late 1950's, and by the early 1960's had firmly established it as part of the sound of what's sometimes derisively called "Irish Pub Music." There were bands that followed in the Clancys' wake like the Dubliners and the Wolfe Tones who also used banjo, but it's been long enough since I listened to either of those groups that I couldn't tell you with any certainty whether they were using five or four string banjos. I think that, at least in the earlier years of their careers, it was five string, but don't know for sure.

The first time I can recall hearing tenor banjos being tuned an octave below the fiddle and used to play jigs and reels was the mid-1970's, but I was in the American hinterlands and am fairly certain that it started at least ten years before that.

But by the late 70's tenors were ubiquitous in Irish music, of course, and five string banjos were the rare ones.


whm

[GerryinAZ]

Originally Posted by wcap

Regarding Irish music: Do you know anything about how and when banjos came onto the Irish scene?

It's really hard to say exactly when and how the banjo worked it's way into the Irish music scene. So much of Irish history is passed down verbally. It's hard to add factual evidence to just about anything you hear.

A story I had heard was there were a few of the immigrants to the US that learned to play the banjo at Old Time Mountain Music jams in the foothills of the Appalachians during the period in which Irish Traditional music was influencing Old Time, and eventually Bluegrass music. They then took it back to Ireland when they returned home. This would have been the standard 5-string tuned CGDA. In all actuality, they were so poor they played whatever they could get their hands on.

Don't hold me to this, but I faintly remember hearing someone saying Barney McKenna of the Dubliners gets credit for playing the first tenor banjo actually tuned to GDAE, the octave below the fiddle/mandolin.

[wcap]

This is fascinating stuff. For some time now I have found it odd that such a quintessentially American instrument as a banjo would have become established in Irish music. I was aware, of course, of the influence of Irish music on traditional American music. What I had not considered was the possibility that the links between Ireland and America via Irish immigrants might have resulted in the musical transfer between Ireland and the U.S. being two-way.

And while I knew that 5-string banjos could be wonderful for playing Irish fiddle tunes, and I knew that tenor banjos were tuned to the same sorts of intervals as violins and mandolins, the potential for direct transfer of fiddle tunes from violin to tenor banjo had not occurred to me.

This is all very cool.

Speaking of tenor banjos:

I have an old Whyte Laydie (spelling?) tenor banjo that has been in the family for at least 50 years (maybe actually 60 or more). It has sat in its case for most of the 35 or so years I have had it. I really ought to get it out, change the strings, and do something useful with it.

(I kind of can't bear to look at it though... my cousin drew a happy face in blue magic marker on the head when he had it for a while - I should probably get a new head for it!).

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by Sesop

I have a couple of 5-string banjos, which I love, and a few 6-string guitars which I also love. The idea of a 6-string banjo seems like a good idea, but I wonder if its just a novelty that doesn't have much practical applications.

Does anyone have one? Want one? What kind of stuff do you play with it? Do you tune it like a banjo or a guitar?

Above is the original question:
I guess this is what I fine "amusing" whenever someone asks about whether the 6 string banjo has relevancy to making music. To those of us that makes music with them and love them the answer is yes. These instruments make all the sense in the world to many of us that play current contemporary music and use them effectively. I am well aware of Bela Flack's amazing abilities, sorry but it is irrelevant to me I am not a instrumentalist. I can admire what he can do but not going to be listening to it, cause I tend to listen to what I can play and relate to. The history of the 5 string can be interesting but frankly equally irrelevent. The high 5 th string can add interesting possibilities I am sure but so can two more bass strings. I just find the 5th stringers always in the end seem to look at their instrument as the pure one and have difficulty with those who find it not preticularly relevant to their music, where the 6 is. Neil Young has got it down, just make music.

I do have NetFlix and will be looking for the Bela special on the History of the Banjo! Thanks for the reference

[Zigeuner]

Originally Posted by GerryinAZ

The banjo in the pic above is quite modern,. The banjo originates in Africa and was nothing more than a gourd with a stick stuck in it and stripped bark strings.

Guitar-Banjo... Nah. Stick to playin' yer guitars.

6 stringed banjo played like a banjo is supposed to be played;

http://youtu.be/O-SLSZ-9748

You bet!

It's nice, but it's not a standard 6 string banjo. There is a high-tuned drone string on the 6th position. It's really a 5 string banjo with an extra string.

The 6 string banjo was built to enable guitar players to have a banjo sound. In like manner, the tenor guitar was built to give tenor players a guitar sound.

I like all of them. I play tenor, plectrum and 5 string banjo. I would like to have a vintage Gibson guitar banjo.

[GerryinAZ]

Originally Posted by Zigeuner

It's nice, but it's not a standard 6 string banjo. There is a high-tuned drone string on the 6th position. It's really a 5 string banjo with an extra string.

The 6 string banjo was built to enable guitar players to have a banjo sound. In like manner, the tenor guitar was built to give tenor players a guitar sound.

I like all of them. I play tenor, plectrum and 5 string banjo. I would like to have a vintage Gibson guitar banjo.

So... lemme get this straight then; By what you're saying, what we call a 5-string banjo (most commonly configured with the shorter drone string) is really just a 4 string banjo with an extra string? Hmmmm... I'd have to think about that one.

I can buy the idea that the 6-string banjo with a similar scale to a guitar with 6 strings all the same length and tuned in 4ths like a guitar was designed for guitar players that wanted to get a banjo-like sound.

Do you think the luthier who made the 6-stringer Sarah is playing in the video was designing it for a guitar player? Sorry, I can't buy that. I think we'd be okay calling it a 6 string banjo.