A Guitar Pick Primer -- Please Participate.

[HHP]

As far as material goes, It's like a guitar built using the finest material but the builder doesn't understand bracing, can't make a straight neck, and doesn't know how to set a saddle. It's not going to sound good.

A pick has to be configured properly before it can do its job. Material is the final step to get the sound fine tuned. You can make a bad pick out of any material.

[EMLPicks]

Originally Posted by HHP

As far as material goes, It's like a guitar built using the finest material but the builder doesn't understand bracing, can't make a straight neck, and doesn't know how to set a saddle. It's not going to sound good.

A pick has to be configured properly before it can do its job. Material is the final step to get the sound fine tuned. You can make a bad pick out of any material.

Absolutely correct. Subtle differences in shape can produce drastic differences in tone. I can tweak the depth of a bevel and make a pick sound noticeably warmer or brighter. Material of course matters, but my experience has consistently been that two picks made from different materials that have the same shape/bevel will sound more similar than two picks made from the same material but with very different bevels. None of this is to minimize the importance of choosing good materials though. It took a while before I settled on a few plastics that were good enough to make the cut and cut into :~)

[cdkrugjr]

The question is hardly ever, "Is this the best Thingy?"

The question is rather, "Given <LONG, UNIQUE list of EVERY factor influencing EVERY aspect of my playing>, is there a better Thingy than what I'm using."

Take your favorite guitar, put on your favorite strings, grab your favorite pick, you're in heaven.

Pass the guitar and pick along to the next gal, she says, "Eh . . this just isn't doing it for me."

These discussions are best punctuated by long sips of your favorite libation, "Well sure, I get the merits of rare materials mined by gnomes from a secret cave deep in the Black Forest," pausing to take a long pull from his mug, "But for my money only Unicorn hooves dipped in dragon blood will do . . ."

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by ches

They turned a friend and I on to Dava picks. The rubber coating in the grip area allowed me to hold the pick consistently all night long. The downside is that the attack can be a little soft due to the pick material.

I thought I might be the only person to play Dava grips. In the past I've had trouble holding on to picks. With electrics they'd fly around the room. With acoustics, they'd end up in the sound hold and I'd do that prehistoric rain dance of holding a guitar over my head and shaking it to get the **** pick out.

Somehow around a year ago I stumbled onto Dava picks and problem solved. They make two sizes (standard Fender type and smaller jazz size) and use three different materials for the tips - nylon, deleon, and poly-gel. They're generally the same thickness but they also make one heavier tip in a pick called the Power Grip which is a lot thicker/stiffer. They even make one with a different type grip but with a nickel/silver tip, so if you want a harder attack, it's gettable.

I have a few of each of them. I don't feel or hear much difference between the nylon and deleon, but the poly-gel is a much mellower sound and I love the feel of them too. I'm the kind of guy who plays my electrics on the neck pickup with the volume backed off so I tend to like the lows and mids more than shimmering highs, so the gel tips suit me really well. For strumming. For picking, I sometimes like a bit more attack and will grab one of the harder tips.

I've tried LOTS of picks including various prime tones and for the past day or two a Blue Chip. Which I may return or I may keep around just so I can periodically play it so I'm not tempted to go buying any more $30+ picks. I can hear and feel subtle differences but **** near anything with harder material just sounds too bright to me. I keep coming back to the Dava. I'm inherently curious so I'll probably try other stuff as it comes along, but I seem to have found my picks.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

As I stated in the previous post, tone on an electric guitar is not impacted by a pick, or so minutely that it's not worth discussing. That is exactly my point. That is exactly the kind of playing where feel and playability are crucial. In that kind of playing, the modification of the signal path through pedals, amps, processors, eq, etc. is what gives the instrument tone, not the pick.

But this is a forum about acoustic instruments, thus we are discussing acoustic tone. And nothing impacts acoustic tone more than the pick being used.

sm

Scott, I've read this whole thread and am impressed by your level of knowledge and your OCD level of detail - I can slightly relate although not specifically regarding guitar picks.

BUT, on this point I have to disagree and disagree strongly. The attack of the pick against the strings makes every bit as much difference with an electric guitar as it does with an acoustic. Arguably more because depending on how you have your amp and effects set up, it can really accentuate the impact of the attack (or conversely, make it less critical). While I haven't run into any boutique pick manufacturers on electric guitar forums like I have here, the debates of pick material, shape, thickness, etc, are every bit as extensive and occasionally heated as they are here.

Picks matter on any plucked string instrument, not just acoustic ones... And we all have to find what works best for us among the many options.

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by EMLPicks

Subtle differences in shape can produce drastic differences in tone.

Yes, and to prove this, strum with the point of any pointed pick and then strum with one of the rounded sides and the sound will be significantly different.

[ALBD]

Originally Posted by raysachs

Scott, I've read this whole thread and am impressed by your level of knowledge and your OCD level of detail - I can slightly relate although not specifically regarding guitar picks.

BUT, on this point I have to disagree and disagree strongly. The attack of the pick against the strings makes every bit as much difference with an electric guitar as it does with an acoustic. Arguably more because depending on how you have your amp and effects set up, it can really accentuate the impact of the attack (or conversely, make it less critical). While I haven't run into any boutique pick manufacturers on electric guitar forums like I have here, the debates of pick material, shape, thickness, etc, are every bit as extensive and occasionally heated as they are here.

Picks matter on any plucked string instrument, not just acoustic ones... And we all have to find what works best for us among the many options.

Exactly. There is no magic pick or pick material. Applications are endless and subjective tone is equally endless.

That’s why a drawer full of cheap (or, even better, free) picks is the correct answer to this whole pick discussion. And don’t forget your god given fingers!

Again, just my opinion.

[ALBD]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

ALBD, yes, I agree. I suppose my point was, rather poorly expressed, was that, yes, those factors are very important, and taking a great material and adding a bevel, or factoring in shape or thickness, can indeed improve performance and tone. But to do those things to a pick and then play it against, for instance, a Blue Chip one will likely be very disappointed.

Thanks for adding to the conversation,
scott

Just keeping it real here, and at the risk of upsetting you again, for which I respectfully apologize for in advance; this is what you said:

“Let me say unequivocally: The material is the #1 factor in determining the tonal qualities of a guitar pick”

I understand you have put a lot of time “researching” the material end of your biz, but there is much more to it than that. You can buy all the best materials in the world, but to understand and master tone is a different matter.

So I respectfully but strongly disagree. Thanks.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by ALBD

Just keeping it real here, and at the risk of upsetting you again, for which I respectfully apologize for in advance; this is what you said:

“Let me say unequivocally: The material is the #1 factor in determining the tonal qualities of a guitar pick”

I understand you have put a lot of time “researching” the material end of your biz, but there is much more to it than that. You can buy all the best materials in the world, but to understand and master tone is a different matter.

So I respectfully but strongly disagree. Thanks.

ALBD. Disagreement always welcome. I'd appreciate you eleborating, as I'm not sure I understand what you're conveying here.

Let me perhaps clarify my own view. All things being equal, a pick made from the finest material available, with the same player and the exact same shape, thickness, edges, etc., will outperform a pick made of lesser material with, again, the same player and identical design of shape, thickness, edge profile, and the like.

My personal belief, and experience, is that Blue Chip, for example, or Red Bear, could not have built such a substantial business unless most players (but not all) noticed a dramatic improvement in tone and performance over other picks. They would also not have been able to garner endorsements from many of the top players, for whom performance, not money, is the main concern. CLP has begun testing with several major artists, and performance is always the first consideration for them. And I suspect, like me, they came to these materials searching for a legal, manmade alternative to genuine tortoise, which many, again like me, have been playing tortoise for many years.

Anyway, I'll stand by that statement and accept any disagreement you or anyone else may have, but your previous post made it hard for me to decipher your argument.

Thanks,
Scott

[ALBD]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

ALBD. Disagreement always welcome. I'd appreciate you eleborating, as I'm not sure I understand what you're conveying here.

Let me perhaps clarify my own view. All things being equal, a pick made from the finest material available, with the same player and the exact same shape, thickness, edges, etc., will outperform a pick made of lesser material with, again, the same player and identical design of shape, thickness, edge profile, and the like.

My personal belief, and experience, is that Blue Chip, for example, or Red Bear, could not have built such a substantial business unless most players (but not all) noticed a dramatic improvement in tone and performance over other picks. They would also not have been able to garner endorsements from many of the top players, for whom performance, not money, is the main concern. CLP has begun testing with several major artists, and performance is always the first consideration for them. And I suspect, like me, they came to these materials searching for a legal, manmade alternative to genuine tortoise, which many, again like me, have been playing tortoise for many years.

Anyway, I'll stand by that statement and accept any disagreement you or anyone else may have, but your previous post made it hard for me to decipher your argument.

Thanks,
Scott

My point is very simple. Design is more important than material assuming you are using a reasonably suitable material. Red Bear and Blue Chip aren’t just about their materials.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by ALBD

My point is very simple. Design is more important than material assuming you are using a reasonably suitable material. Red Bear and Blue Chip aren’t just about their materials.

How many picks have you experienced with? I've played over 200.

Design will definitely improved the performance of a pick. Not saying that. I personally cannot detect a difference between a bevel or not, for example, but I attribute that to not being a great player. I know too many excellent players, including several local fellas I play with every month, who swear by bevels, so I'm willing to grant this point. And I would imagine BC sells far more picks with bevels than rounded edges.

But if you're saying that a Dunlop Ultex will sound better than the same sized Blue Chip with the same rounded edges, no, this simply isn't true. Is this what you're saying? Or a better designed Fender 351 teardrop will sound better than a BC or a Red Bear, uh, no. How many different materials have you played? From where have you gathered this information?

I'd be curious for you to post a list of the brands and materials you've personally played.

sm

[ALBD]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

I personally cannot detect a difference between a bevel or not....

sm

Yet you design and sell expensive beveled picks? Maybe you don’t? I think you’ve made my point. I assure you the folks at Blue Chip, etc. can detect a difference. So, again, my point is simply that material is not the most important aspect of pick design.

All in my opinion of course.

[ALBD]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

How many picks have you experienced with? I've played over 200

But if you're saying that a Dunlop Ultex will sound better than the same sized Blue Chip with the same rounded edges, no, this simply isn't true. Is this what you're saying? Or a better designed Fender 351 teardrop will sound better than a BC or a Red Bear, uh, no. How many different materials have you played? From where have you gathered this information?

sm

Ok. I’m saying that a well designed pick made from a “lesser” material will perform better than a poorly designed pick made from the most magical material imaginable. I’m not sure where we are disconnecting here. . .or why I don’t just shut the blank up! Hahah. I think I will. I’m out of this one.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by ALBD

Ok. I’m saying that a well designed pick made from a “lesser” material will perform better than a poorly designed pick made from the most magical material imaginable. I’m not sure where we are disconnecting here. . .or why I don’t just shut the blank up! Hahah. I think I will. I’m out of this one.

Good exchange, ALBD. I appreciate your opinion, just disagree, that's all. AGF is a great place to encounter players who, speaking only for myself, know more than me about any number of subjects and are also far better players than me. Being a member here for almost five years now has been one of my greatest learning experiences as a musicians.

Have a great evening, and catch ya around the bend.

scott memmer

[frankmcr]

What is the ideal finger shape for fingerpicking?