The difference between being a music box and understanding the guitar.

[Mr. Jelly]

I came from the opposite direction in a way. Incorrectly of coarse. Being taken by blues guitar via Johnny Mayall and Eric Clapton I started picking out notes to play lead guitar that sounded correct or in tune with the albums. Somehow I figured out the I - IV - V chords of playing the blues. That lead to all the different variations of putting together these chords that made up different blues songs. Boredom lead me to find blues songs that used some different chords other than just the I - IV - V chords. That's like the first steps into jazz and more theory in a rudimentary sort of way. Like using a II 7th chord before the V chord of a blues. From there boredom got me looking at the chords that were used in country blues ragtime sounding guitar tunes. And how that all worked. Along with this were many side jaunts into old time country, bluegrass and rock and roll along with rock music. Plus the usage of the major and minor pentatonic scales. I feel I know what I'm doing for what I like to do and can throw this stuff together to make a musical salad and make sounds I like to hear at any given moment. But then for me to play a song like the record is like line dancing and way to boring to put effort into it. I guess my point is I slowly worked my way to a certain amount of knowledge by baby steps that I could understand at the time. And keep me interested in continuing to play guitar.

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Three things:



Fretboard knowledge

Know the major scales

Know how to "spell" chords using those major scales.



You could have all the "theory" you need down cold in 3 months, if you work a bit every day.

Yep. Just do this. I made flash cards and memorized all the major triads and major scales cold, along with the circle of fifths (which turns up a lot of patterns to help in your memorization, btw.) Along the way I learned the fretboard and how to quickly find triads in various inversions on various combinations of strings.

If nothing else, it’s really helped me to know where I am at any moment and where I might go in arranging my own tunes on guitar. Also nice for helping find vocal harmonies. Once you know the major stuff, minor is easy to find too.

Doesn’t help me write songs though.

[zombywoof]

I am a bit older than the OP and have met some folks I call "natural born" musicians for lack of a better description. They have such a good ear that they can listen to a Scott Joplin piece and in a short time translate it to the fingerboard.

There are far more of us mere mortals though who have to work like a dog to get something down. Me, I rarely play anything the way it is recorded. Some of it is choice. I love doing stuff like taking a song like "Paint It Black" and playing the chorus in waltz time. Or try playing the Beatles "Things We Said Today" in an open minor tuning. Another part of it though is it took me a long time to learn one simple fact - your style is made up of not only your strength but your limitations. If something keeps throwing you for a loop find a way around it that has the same feel although not necessarily the same notes. That does not mean you give up on it but music should never stop being fun. Once I does I will put the guitars down.

[musicman1951]

It depends on what you want to be able to do. If you really want to understand all the nuances of music you should probably look into lessons with someone with a music degree.

But I'm not sure what "just a music box" means. If you want to play and enjoy songs and you're already doing that you're not a music box, you're a musician. Music is in the ears, not on the paper. You need to read music to communicate with other musicians and there is obviously nothing wrong with knowing theory, but it's not a requirement to play tunes on the guitar.

I took jazz lessons with Nick Brignola (woodwind recording artist). He didn't know how to read music when he made his first recording - but he sure knew music. He learned by playing jazz solos on recordings note for note - using his ears. Maybe everyone doesn't have every note by Charlie Parker ears, but I think we can all figure out the handful of chords in most songs. The more you do it the easier it gets.

By all means learn anything that interests you, but don't make it a requirement for enjoying what you're playing now.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by zombywoof

- your style is made up of not only your strength but your limitations.

That means there's still hope for me. Thank you!

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by Monsoon1

Unfortunately all it takes is practice. And over time you will get better at finding those notes on the fretboard that you have been hearing in your head

Wrong, and kinda glib. "All you have to do is get better" may be true, but not very helpful. Practice makes permanent; only perfect practice makes perfect.

Guided, intentional practice will help you understand the guitar vs painting-by-numbers. Doing the same things you've been doing and expecting different results is one popular definition of insanity.

I played violin, guitar and bass for nearly 30 years just by following the notes/chords. When I started mandolin 10 years ago I started picking up more "theory" (its actually all fact). I would start with the basic circle of fifths and Nashville chord numbering. You'll soon see that most songs we play use the I, IV, V, vi and ii at the most. This will help a lot when transposing songs when needed. Also, the melody can almost always be picked out of the chord you're playing.

Finally, the single best thing that helped me improve fast was regularly playing with others.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi gerardo

I have a degree in music and taught guitar locally for 40+ years. My observations are, people with zero knowledge of music and the fretboard enjoy music as much (if not more) than the 'educated' ones.

I'm not against people understanding and even applying theory, but it's sure not going to enhance the enjoyment for most players.

During lessons I taught scales, chord building, inversions, alternate tuning, etc. But we learned those things gradually over months/years, not in days, and certainly never from reading a book or watching a DVD once.

YouTube is your friend, and JustinGuitar is probably the most popular YouTube channel people go to for learning basics and beyond. He has nearly 1 million subscribers (in March 2019) for a reason.

Age 67 you have plenty of time to enjoy your guitars and playing music.

When I set out to master theory (it was a minor in college), I spent 5 years in theory classes and still didn't know it all. And that was 3 classroom days a week, with homework accompanying and proficient and knowledgeable teachers.

Hope you find what you need, and enjoy playing for years more!!!

Big Question for lJguitar:
I thought this would be a good question to ask you since you have so many years of training.

Did musicians of the 60's & 70's, like the Beatles, Moody Blues, The Who, Stones, Hendrix, Neil Young know or write music, using music theories?

Most of the groups listed above wrote their masterpieces in a Like-style. While each of their songs is unique unto itself, it follows much of the groups basic musical progressions. The exception of course, is the Beatles, which seemed to reach out into countless different directions.

As a writer, I have always been a bit afraid to learn music theory. Afraid that it would put my music writing in a box(of standards). Literally taking what makes my music what it is out of the equation.

On the other hand, I have always wondered if learning music theory would take me into new territories.
It is a bit of a stalemate for myself. Afraid to reach out for fear of loosing what makes me=me. And afraid of not learning so that I might reach new and different heights.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by gerardo1000

This is my frustration: at the age of 67, after many years of playing the acoustic guitar finger style, self-teaching myself, I feel that I am just a music box. If I like an acoustic guitar song, I find the tablature or look for a lesson on youtube, and memorize the notes, the chords etc.. until I manage to "reproduce" as best as I can the music. But I do not understand what I am doing. I do not understand the fretboard, and why in order to play that kind of music you have to play that note, that chord, etc.... for example, if I have a music in mind, I have no idea of how to play it on my guitar.
I wonder if you have any suggestion of lessons, tutorials, videos, books that can help me not just to learn a piece, but to understand the guitar?
Thank you !

And then what? What would be your goal after "understanding" the guitar? What would you use the knowledge for?

[Sonics]

I'm practical. Here's stuff that doesn't take too long to view and you can use immediately.

Unlocking the neck...




Finding the chords in every key...




The cycle of fifths...

[SunnyDee]

Guitarists and theory - seems like we either get people telling us that we don't need to know that or people who know it so well, they have no idea how mystifying it is to people who don't have a background in the fundamentals.

This is just my experience, but maybe something in it will be helpful.

I started from zero, not understanding at all what people meant when they said something was off key or what minor meant or how people knew what chords to play together or how scales were related to each other or... anything. It just all seemed like magic. When I took up guitar, I wanted to understand it, not just take a "put your fingers here and move your hand like this" approach. I teach in a university, so I know how to learn and what good teaching looks like, so I started with a free online course in the fundamentals from University of Edinburgh on Coursera.

I had to google pretty much every term which usually led me to another term I had to google and another... but in a couple of months I understood the basics and understood all the terms people use, how scales and modes and keys fit together, how it's all related to the shapes on the fretboard and the capo and the tuning and all that as well as how to put it all together on other instruments I have access to. I can play a righty upside down, because I get how it fits together. I know how the standard tuning on my guitar is related to that on the baritone guitar, to that banjo, to that uke, to that violin, to the Uzbek gijjak I bought abroad....

And, more importantly, I could play them because of it. Not well, mind you, because I've only physically gotten half decent on guitar, but I can often mash out a tune as soon as I pick up something new if I know how it's tuned. I just say this because I really have no talent, had no ear (I've since learned) and had no musical education, but learning the fundamentals opened up a whole new world, and I want to encourage anyone who wants to learn by saying it's totally doable and totally worth it.

I also learned enough to know that a great deal of the guitar-specific theory is taught very poorly and that there is a whole world of complexity in theory that requires a graduate degree that I don't need to master. Being aware of it is good enough for me at my advanced age, so I now "understand the fretboard, and why in order to play that kind of music you have to play that note, that chord, etc...." I know how to play in any key and how my fretboard works well enough to transpose anything to fit my voice. I can improvise. I can change the voicing, add melody, bass, whatever... If I want to write a song I can quickly tell which kinds of chords will fit so that it's no longer just random... or magic.

It's not magic, it's just information. I wish I'd known it 50 years earlier, but I did want to tell you, it's not really about memorizing a lot of things. Very little has to be memorized once you understand the patterns and the relationships between the basic elements of music. For example, you don't need to think there are 12 different major "scales" to memorize. There's one pattern that they all share. Learn the one and learn to move it around. It's also, not necessarily, about reading music. I can read slowly on simple treble instruments, and I'd like to get better, but reading on guitar is a good deal more difficult and may not be the place to start. Classical players spend years just reading the first 5 frets. It's useful to understand what the score is telling you, but actually being able to sight read is a whole different skill. It's also not necessary to learn on a piano, which is something else a lot of people say. Theory works on whatever instrument you know so, imo, you might as well learn it there.

Again, this is just my experience, shared from someone who had no background, started late, and made progress quickly with a fair bit of effort and a lot of desire. The fundamentals course was a couple of months long. I also spent 2-3 months very focused on ear training and learning the fretboard and I keep up with those things still. I hope you go for it and wish you all the best.

[Pitar]

Originally Posted by gerardo1000

Thi is my frustration: at the age of 67, after many years of playing the acoustic guitar finger style, self-teaching myself, I feel that I am just a music box. If I like an acoustic guitar song, I find the tablature or look for a lesson on youtube, and memorize the notes, the chords etc.. until I manage to "reproduce" as best as I can the music. But I do not understand what I am doing. I do not understand the fretboard, and why in order to play that kind of music you have to play that note, that chord, etc.... for example, if I have a music in mind, I have no idea of how to play it on my guitar.
I wonder if you have any suggestion of lessons, tutorials, videos, books that can help me not just to learn a piece, but to understand the guitar?
Thank you !

I can think of a melody and play it within a few minutes. I'm also a finger picker and a few years younger.

It's the ear. I've never taken a lesson nor read a tab. It's all ear development. I can listen to a melody and have the chord progression figured out before I pick up the guitar. I know the notes of the fret board by ear. I also know them by name and where they are but that was a curiosity that came well after learning them by ear.

If you have not trained your ear to lead your hands then you'll forever be a slave to visual aids such as scores and tabs. I would immediately dispense with any and all visual aids and focus on my ear if I were you. It's never too late and so much more rewarding than relying on the eyes.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by TBman

And then what? What would be your goal after "understanding" the guitar? What would you use the knowledge for?

With better understanding you can learn new songs much quicker. Your improvisation will sound and flow better. If you write tunes you can be conscious about why you write what you write. Many untrained musicians that I know have a way of making everything they play and write sound the same. When I point it out to them they are kind of embarrassed.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by Pitar

I can think of a melody and play it within a few minutes. I'm also a finger picker and a few years younger.

It's the ear. I've never taken a lesson nor read a tab. It's all ear development. I can listen to a melody and have the chord progression figured out before I pick up the guitar. I know the notes of the fret board by ear. I also know them by name and where they are but that was a curiosity that came well after learning them by ear.

If you have not trained your ear to lead your hands then you'll forever be a slave to visual aids such as scores and tabs. I would immediately dispense with any and all visual aids and focus on my ear if I were you. It's never too late and so much more rewarding than relying on the eyes.

It may come as a shock, but there are many formally trained musicians who can do both (read notation and play by ear). No true craftsman says "all I need is a hammer." The more tools you learn to use the better. Knowledge always beats ignorance.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

With better understanding you can learn new songs much quicker. Your improvisation will sound and flow better. If you write tunes you can be conscious about why you write what you write. Many untrained musicians that I know have a way of making everything they play and write sound the same. When I point it out to them they are kind of embarrassed.

Music theory doesn't help dexterity and muscle memory and the OP, like me, plays finger style.

Being able to read notation helps though.

Imagination writes songs, not theory. But other than that I agree with you,

[JohnW63]

The OP wants to know the WHY of music. Not just follow along with chords as he has done for a long time. There is nothing with that and I understand that desire very well.

No, it is NOT all about ear training. That leads to auditory guessing. If you want to play a song in a different key, and haven't HEARD it that way, your ear can not tell you about it. Theory will.

Go ear train a song line John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" and tell me what he is playing and why it works, for example.

It's not some monster that will steal your creativity or shove you in a music rules box, never to let you be you any more. Music theory is ONLY a language that tells us HOW music works and why some things sound wrong and others sound right. It's a great aid in being able to figure out what pattern a song has and why the composer did what they did. This also helps when you want to write something and get to a point where you get stuck and maybe want to go from chord A to chord B and don't know how to get there. Theory gives you ideas by knowing what will work.

I would check out a few of the online video series by JustinGuitar or Paul Davids and check out their videos on Theory. If you like those and they start to give you the "why" and "how" of playing the guitar you like, then theory is what you are looking for.