McPherson Sable or Emerald X30

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

And then you'd have $10 worth of stickers that would peel off and need replacing 20 times.

I'm confounded by how cheap people who will happily spend over $2k on a guitar can be.

You would be shocked at the quality of those stickers. I've tried them just to see how I would like the look before installing true abalone dots on my OF660. My daughter put some of the remaining stickers on her ukulele and you would never tell they are stickers, plus they are holding up remarkably well. It's a cheap and reversible mod.

Now, if you have a guitar you love, that would be a keeper- in that case I would agree with you and the real deal is better.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

Well, you do have about 15 of them, Tony. I can understand the urge to economize

Yes, those so-called "first world" problems can require creative thinking outside the box, but inside the dumpster.

Tony

[mikealpine]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

You would be shocked at the quality of those stickers. I've tried them just to see how I would like the look before installing true abalone dots on my OF660. My daughter put some of the remaining stickers on her ukulele and you would never tell they are stickers, plus they are holding up remarkably well. It's a cheap and reversible mod.

Now, if you have a guitar you love, that would be a keeper- in that case I would agree with you and the real deal is better.

I had considered stickers, but hopefully will keep this as I keep my OM.

I’m now more concerned about wolf notes! Seriously...now I’m really confused. I listened to clips of the RainSong vintage (with the wood veneer), and that sounds nice. Too bad their dreads don’t offer a cutaway. Pretty sure the WS won’t have the same oomph as a dread. I’m going to have to break out my old Takamine and see if I can live without the cutaway.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by mikealpine

I had considered stickers, but hopefully will keep this as I keep my OM.

I’m now more concerned about wolf notes! Seriously...now I’m really confused. I listened to clips of the RainSong vintage (with the wood veneer), and that sounds nice. Too bad their dreads don’t offer a cutaway. Pretty sure the WS won’t have the same oomph as a dread. I’m going to have to break out my old Takamine and see if I can live without the cutaway.

Guess it depends on what kind of oomph you want. Kind of weird that you say this because I just watched a comparison video between a concert dread and a WS just today. Crazy but in this video the WS sounds like it has a bit more projection?

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by mikealpine

I’m now more concerned about wolf notes! Seriously...now I’m really confused.

I think we’ve seen two reports of X30 wolf notes here on the AGF.

GuitarLuva indicated that he can live with them, with the guitar’s other qualities overriding those concerns (and please correct me, GL, if I’m misrepresenting you). Tof decided otherwise - which is the prerogative of any guitar purchaser.

Two reports - and there are certainly more than two X30 owners here, in this tiny corner of the Emerald owners world.

Everyone’s ears and sensitivities are different. I find it hard to believe that there’s a systemic problem with the X30, given the numbers that Emerald is shipping each week.

[esimms86]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

And then you'd have $10 worth of stickers that would peel off and need replacing 20 times.

I'm confounded by how cheap people who will happily spend over $2k on a guitar can be.

I actually was jonesing at first for abalone dots but eventually went with white because the side markers are already white. If I was ordering an x30 built from scratch I would definitely go with abalone for the fretboard dots and side markers and dispense with the pickup system altogether. I would also add fan frets to the recipe. My x30 is coming in blue carbon, however, red carbon is my personal favorite.

Now you guys have me worried about wolf tones. I wonder if it would be a problem with an x30 fan fret 🤔. ThereÂ’s definitely at least one out there in the wild.

[mikealpine]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Guess it depends on what kind of oomph you want. Kind of weird that you say this because I just watched a comparison video between a concert dread and a WS just today. Crazy but in this video the WS sounds like it has a bit more projection?

Thanks for posting that! My impression is that the WS had a brighter presence, so it sounded louder or more cutting. I preferred the tone of the dread, which sounded just about as loud, but not as pRominent. Very interesting!

Originally Posted by eatswodo

I think we’ve seen two reports of X30 wolf notes here on the AGF.

GuitarLuva indicated that he can live with them, with the guitar’s other qualities overriding those concerns (and please correct me, GL, if I’m misrepresenting you). Tof decided otherwise - which is the prerogative of any guitar purchaser.

Two reports - and there are certainly more than two X30 owners here, in this tiny corner of the Emerald owners world.

Everyone’s ears and sensitivities are different. I find it hard to believe that there’s a systemic problem with the X30, given the numbers that Emerald is shipping each week.

This is a great point, thank you! I’d imagine there’d be other reviews posted here and elsewhere on the web if it were a common and very noticeable flaw. Thanks for the reality check.

[mikealpine]

Originally Posted by esimms86

I actually was jonesing at first for abalone dots but eventually went with white because the side markers are already white. If I was ordering an x30 built from scratch I would definitely go with abalone for the fretboard dots and side markers and dispense with the pickup system altogether. I would also add fan frets to the recipe. My x30 is coming in blue carbon, however, red carbon is my personal favorite.

Now you guys have me worried about wolf tones. I wonder if it would be a problem with an x30 fan fret 🤔. ThereÂ’s definitely at least one out there in the wild.

I did’t know abalone is an option. I’ll ask, as well as look at what the side dots are. Thanks! I need a pickup for the occasional gig. Would like to try a fan fret one day, but I don’t use alternate tunings, so I don’t know that there’d be a benefit for me.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

I think we’ve seen two reports of X30 wolf notes here on the AGF.

GuitarLuva indicated that he can live with them, with the guitar’s other qualities overriding those concerns (and please correct me, GL, if I’m misrepresenting you). Tof decided otherwise - which is the prerogative of any guitar purchaser.

Two reports - and there are certainly more than two X30 owners here, in this tiny corner of the Emerald owners world.

Everyone’s ears and sensitivities are different. I find it hard to believe that there’s a systemic problem with the X30, given the numbers that Emerald is shipping each week.

Nope you're not misrepresenting me at all. For those who may have concern let me word it like this. When the X30 was first announced by Emerald, I placed an order right away. I received the guitar within 4 months of ordering and when I received it I was blown away. To sum the guitar up in as few words as possible, it was very unique, the most unique guitar I ever played. I did discover the wolf note early on but it didn't stop me from enjoying the guitar. Sure I did find fingerpicking and flatpicking those notes annoying as I already stated. Those of you who have been around here for awhile might remember that I gifted that guitar to a very lucky uncle. He was blown away by that guitar and still plays it almost exclusively. It didn't take very long after I gave it away that I started missing what it offered. I can't remember how long I lasted (maybe 6 months or so) before I had the wife so annoyed she told me (more like forced me) to get another one. I couldn't help but wonder was the wolf just on that particular guitar. It wasn't. Same spot exactly on my new one and looks like it's the same for Tof as well.

So here's the deal. All stringed instruments contain wolf notes. On some guitars (as was previously stated by others) they're hidden very well and you may never know they exist. Some guitars not so much. The frequencies they're on found on can vary from body size, build type bla bla bla a lot of that stuff has been covered already. On dreadnoughts they're usually somewhere around F. My Gibson, which is a lovely guitar that also survived several of my purges has a subtle wolf on F. It didn't stop me from keeping that guitar either. When it comes to wooden guitars, it's also possible as the guitar ages, gets played in, using a Tonerite that the wolf can be moved around or put to sleep altogether. I think it's safe to assume that won't be the case with a carbon guitar.

Yes I do prefer the Sable overall to the X30 but that is just my own preference. That doesn't mean the Sable is better or worse it just checks the boxes better for me. The same way someone prefers Martin over Taylor or vice versa. There's always going to be people falling on both sides of the fence, that's to be expected.

Mikealpine, whatever you decide in the end I hope it works out for you and I hope I didn't cause you any confusion just wanted to provide you with the information based on my experiences with those guitars. I've been impressed in one way shape or form with all the carbon fiber guitars that I've played in the last few years and truth is you can't go wrong with any of them. Good luck!

EDIT: I personally wouldn't describe a wolf as a problem per se. It's just part of a stringed instrument. I read a lot of blogs on the topic over the years and there's basically 4 camps of people: some hate them and would sell the guitar immediately, some love them (yes that one is hard to believe for me), some don't know they exist at all, and some who can live with them (to a degree). I did mention in my earlier post that I was surprised that nobody mentions the wolf on the X30 on here. I mentioned it first in a thread well over a year ago and nobody acknowledged the info. I'm curious if Earl is going to report back. It can't be just a coincidence that 2 X30's that came my way and one for Tof has it and no others.

[tbeltrans]

I have had two guitars (not carbon fiber) over my own history that had very clear wolf tones. That bothered me to no end. So if I were considering an X30 (I am not in the market for another guitar), I would want to play it first or have a very well defined return policy, because my own experience with wolf tones was not good. Since I never play with a pick, instead preferring fingerstyle, this wolf tone thing would be a potential issue to look for.

What I gathered from GuitarLuva's comments is that he experienced wolf tones on both his X30s under certain circumstances, namely fingerpicking rather than strumming, which tells me that there is a possibility that other X30 models MIGHT also experience this.

Because the nature of GuitarLuva's posts has been consistently very informative and well written, I would tend to take what he says into consideration and any cautions from him would be something I would watch for when buying a guitar model about which he made such comments.

So I personally don't think it out of line to be concerned about wolf tones when considering an X30. From what I have understood from the many discussions around here regarding Emerald, they apparently do have a return policy for stock guitars. I am not clear on how they would handle custom guitar returns.

Another thing to consider about Emerald...they seem to be constantly improving their guitars. So if they read about some problem here, chances are that it will be remedied sooner than later. Even if all current X30s did have this wolf tone problem (hypothetically speaking), I would think that this would be quickly addressed. Not all guitar makers are as responsive and willing to modify/customized their products as Emerald seems to be, according to many posts around here. Representatives of the company seem to read and participate in this forum, so I would be surprised if they have not seen this thread already.

To me, this doesn't mean that nobody should get an X30, but instead that when one does get an X30, make sure it suits your needs, as one would with any guitar being purchased. Just be aware of any potential issues reported by other members of the forum, paying particular attention to those posters who seem informed and level-headed in their posts. Forums can be places where you can get "inside" information on a given product by its actual users, and well beyond the blush of the honeymoon period. I have learned about many products I have considered by looking through forums that discuss that product. So, to me, the discussion about wolf tones seems well within the bounds of any product discussion.

Tony

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

EDIT: I personally wouldn't describe a wolf as a problem per se. It's just part of a stringed instrument. I read a lot of blogs on the topic over the years and there's basically 4 camps of people: some hate them and would sell the guitar immediately, some love them (yes that one is hard to believe for me), some don't know they exist at all, and some who can live with them (to a degree). I did mention in my earlier post that I was surprised that nobody mentions the wolf on the X30 on here. I mentioned it first in a thread well over a year ago and nobody acknowledged the info. I'm curious if Earl is going to report back. It can't be just a coincidence that 2 X30's that came my way and one for Tof has it and no others.

Excellent summary, GL, along with the rest of your post. I’ve highlighted a most important point above. Playing style will also influence how much (if at all) they are an issue for any given player.

It also occurred to me that we see very few discussions on the subject here on the AGF as a whole, which suggests to me that most guitars actually hide them rather well. I’m beginning to think that CF guitars might actually be rather more sensitive to minor variations than the ‘average’ wood guitar - but that’s just an observation with no empirical evidence to back it up.

Here’s an old thread on the wolf, for anyone interested:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...highlight=Wolf

[tbeltrans]

Wolf tones may be just part of a string instrument, however I have only owned two guitars in which these were noticeable. I was really bothered by these and sold the guitars.

So, here is a problem with reading posts in a forum. If somebody reports that a particular model of guitar (two examples of the X30 in the case we are discussing), I would tend to hear in my "mind's ear" what I heard in my own experience with the previous guitars I had owned, while GuitarLuva may have experienced something entirely different in terms of severity. I can't know that since severity was not discussed. However, I know from the various posts, that the two of us agree on what a wolf tone is.

Somebody else may have heard only slight wolf tones and not been bothered, so to that person, a guitar exhibiting wolf tones may not be a problem at all.

Maybe the DEGREE of wolf tone would be important to state when discussing wolf tones. On my two guitars that exhibited wolf tones, these particular notes really stood out from those notes around them, as if somebody suddenly turned the volume way up every time that note was played.

Perhaps the severity of the wolf tones on GuitarLuva's two X30s was not that severe and therefore possible to live with.

I own 2 McPherson Sables and two McPherson Tourings, as well as a couple of original CA Guitars Cargos. None of these guitars exhibits any detectable wolf tones to my ear. Therefore, my claim would be that these stringed instruments do not exhibit wolf tones.

It may well be true that wolf tones are "just a part of a string instrument", but in my experience, a wolf tone is not a good thing and none of my current guitars (wood or carbon fiber) exhibits what I have experience as wolf tones in the two guitars I owned in the past that clearly did.

So what does this really mean? I don't have an answer except to say that whatever wolf tones my guitars are supposed to have since they are all string instruments, certainly can't be heard by me.

This may seem like a lot of words about nothing, but to me, wolf tones are a huge issue and a deal breaker when considering a guitar. Possibly to others in the forum, this is not an issue at all, or maybe just a slight irritant that can be lived with. It seems to be a matter of degrees, both in the severity of the wolf tone and in the perception of the player.

Tony

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

This may seem like a lot of words about nothing, but to me, wolf tones are a huge issue and a deal breaker when considering a guitar. Possibly to others in the forum, this is not an issue at all, or maybe just a slight irritant that can be lived with. It seems to be a matter of degrees, both in the severity of the wolf tone and in the perception of the player.

Tony

Of course! Maybe another way of stating it is that “a wolf tone that is apparent enough to impact the performance and enjoyment of the instrument is A Problem”

After all, if you can’t hear it, or it just doesn’t bother you, it shouldn’t be an issue, should it?

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

Of course! Maybe another way of stating it is that “a wolf tone that is apparent enough to impact the performance and enjoyment of the instrument is A Problem”

After all, if you can’t hear it, or it just doesn’t bother you, it shouldn’t be an issue, should it?

We are coming at this from different perspectives, it seems to me. I was addressing what another poster, considering purchasing this model, expressed as a concern now that the possibility of wolf tones had been brought up. It seemed to me that parts of this thread seemed rather dismissive of this possibility, so I expressed my viewpoint, and I have the feeling that between the two of us, we seem to be talking past each other.

If a person is planning to spend the kind of money these instruments (Emeralds, McPhersons, Rainsong, ...) cost, these issues are to be seriously considered.

I was able to afford my McPhersons because I went back to work from retirement, taking engineering contracts. Even though that income was above and beyond our budget (i.e. completely free and clear), each instrument still cost me 2 or 3, 3 day work weeks to afford after taxes.

For somebody still working full time, with much of that income going to mortgage/rent, etc. the hours to purchase such an instrument is even more significant. So to me, such discussion has real value.

I think we can give this a rest now, don't you?

Tony

[David Eastwood]

Of course, Tony.

I’m really not trying to argue with you - in fact I agree with much of what you are saying - and I apologize if it came off otherwise.