I need advice on restoration of a severly damaged Martin D28 that I acquired

[Jimhar]

Over a year ago I purchased some guitar back and side sets and tops as well as various tools for guitar makers from a seller in hopes to make a guitar or two in the future. For the price of the lot of materials a 1973 Martin D28 was included in a state of disrepair that I will go into in more detail here. This guitar was complete with a body having a newly installed top and a already removed neck with broken off fret board extension. The body had issues with the top which was not properly installed as it turned out and it was left to sit unattended for some 7 to 10 years or more. Anyway this was not the original top for the instrument and had a rosette installed that was certainly not like any Martin rosette I was aware of and had other issues as well. That being said I reached the conclusion that the best thing to do would be to remove the top and try to fix and reinstall the original top. I did locate the original top for the instrument mixed in with some other materials I purchased from this seller. It was in not so stellar condition but in my optomistic way of looking at the world I saw it as a doable thing. I have already resigned myself to the fact that the guitar will not retain its value with the amount of damage it has sustained as this top can restore its originality but it remains that there are many problems to deal with going forward with this restoration. I did start a thread on this guitar way back when and got lots of good advice from some very knowledgable and helpful people then that has helped me to arrive at this point in the process of attempting to restore this instrument to the best it can be... considering!? Things look kindly rough but I'm hopeful of at least getting a guitar of some merit from this collection of parts. Amazingly practically all the parts original to the guitar that were not attached to the new top and old neck were found gathered in a container. Most of the original bracing for the top, the nut and saddle and bridge and bridge plate and pins and pick guard(not the original one though) were found.

My current questions are as follows. I need to make several repairs to the original top to make it functional and after restoring functionality dealing as best as I might with appearances. The top will have some tattered appearances to deal with. My most immediate needs are to get the structural aspects of the top to a functional state. When the bridge was removed from the top it was done in such a way as to leave a bad mess of the wood under it. That will have to be repaired as well as a new bridge plate fabricated and installed. I have some ideas on this repair. other repairs include some top cracks along grain lines which are not so bad but if careful attention is paid to detail here I think acceptable results can be achieved. The only other major top repair is to the sound hole. There is a chunk of the board encompasing part of the top of the sound hole and the part of the top under the fretboard extension and to the side of the extension. I will have to join apiece of new top in this area to replace this area as it is missing. I think this may be my most challanging task! The rosette was quite damaged and I have thought that replacing this piece to incluce the soundhole in its entirety might be a necessity... but doable. I do envision that I will have to come up with some inventive/creative ways to accomplish this and I do have some ideas but am certainly hoping to hear from any and all of you fine builders that may be willing to put forth solutions to these problems.

The neck block has an issue with its attachment that needs to be addressed as well which has caused a crack in the back which needs to be glued back at the bottom and the side attachment to the neck block as well but with the top off that is no problem to get to for clamping. I have salvaged a rosette from another top that is identical to a martin stile 28 except the width of the middle ring is slightly wide. Is that an issue for originality? If so can one be procured and if so where? Or will I have to fab one myself? Thanks again and I will try to supply some detailed pictures of the top to help out.

[Skarsaune]

Good morning - I remember the original thread you posted on this project.

You'll need to get pictures up in order to get good advice on the various items you mentioned.

You seem to be quite concerned with preserving originality on this guitar, but you recognize it is not going to retain it's value given the amount of damage it has taken along the way.

In that case - the original top was removed for a reason. I personally wouldn't try piecing and grafting and cleating it back together just because it's the original. I'd make a new top, and try to make the best guitar I could out of it.

Good luck, whatever you do, and post pictures!

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by Skarsaune

Good morning - I remember the original thread you posted on this project.

"You'll need to get pictures up in order to get good advice on the various items you mentioned."

I do think that pictures would be instrumental in conveying the problems that I wish to address and I do plan to post up some initial pics of the original top and some other relivant pictures so that others will know precisely what the problems are. And hopefully additional pictures of some progress as it is made would be appropriate to also post.

"You seem to be quite concerned with preserving originality on this guitar, but you recognize it is not going to retain it's value given the amount of damage it has taken along the way.

In that case - the original top was removed for a reason. I personally wouldn't try piecing and grafting and cleating it back together just because it's the original. I'd make a new top, and try to make the best guitar I could out of it."

You are correct in recognizing that I'm striving to keep the parts of the original guitar in play as I do have most of them in hand. What i do not have will of necessity have to be replaced as needed. I have driven by the notion of this being a vintage guitar that has a value that needs to be preserved. I know that ship has sailed. In light of that acceptance of fact I find that I still want to keep all the originality possible with the instrument and try to reproduce the original sound that I feel this instrument did produce in it's past. I know that I will have to venture into the unknown with an attempt to breath life back into this corpse of a top! But I do not wish to be led by someone else's decisions regarding the coarse of action which was taken toward the repair of this guitar where the work performed demonstraited that there was probably something amiss in the decision making process that took place regarding this guitar. I say that because of the facts that have become known upon closer inspection of the repairs performed. The replacement top that was installed on the guitar had humidity issues that caused the joint of the plates to fail by separating due to subsequent moisture adjustments causing substantial gaps from shrinkage. The new top also had cleats installed on the crack that did not address the issue sucessfully. Also measurements of the replacement top show it to be a half inch longer than the original top and that can't be good as this incorrect dimension must have been forced onto the body of the original guitar stretching it lengyhwise to the point of forcing the neck block forward causinga failure of the glue joint at the bottom of the block and where the side attaches to the block! These things all seem to cast suspicion upon the repair work and decision making process which was involved here. Even the rosette installed on the top was nothing like a original martin style. This does not make my decision to try and resurect this original top right but it does seem to cast doubt upon any actions taken previously and their reasons for such actions.

Good luck, whatever you do, and post pictures!

Thanks for your post and I just want to add that I do appreciate your input and hope to hear continued input from you and others about your thoughts as I try to move forward with this project. Who knows where this may lead as I am open to any and all suggestions and advice and appreciate all the experience you bring to this problem. I will try to post some pics soon.

[Skarsaune]

To clarify - There's no need or reason to use the replacement top that was found with/on the guitar either, especially if it has any number of issues.

Make a proper replacement top and move forward.

[redir]

I do serious restoration work like this and I can tell you that it would be very difficult to offer advice without having the guitar and all it's parts in my hand. Serious restorations like this are not cookie cutter repairs, they are a case by case basis and often time when you outline an approach you change it to something else midway. Your descriptions are pretty good but pics are necessary and again, even then it's not going to be easy.

For example sometimes to fix a badly damaged top it's better to take all the braces off, sometimes it's not... and so on.

Some of the basic stuff like splintered wood under a poorly removed bridge are fairly standard. If the splinters are still on the bridge then remove them and glue them back in place on the top. If not then consider routing out a patch and gluing in a spruce fillet and leveling off.

It might be best to break this project out into parts, easy first going to more difficult. One step at a time and ask here for advice.

[phavriluk]

One thing OP can do is contact Martin with the serial number and try to get as much information as may be available. Model, year made, species of wood

The information may help determine what's to do next, or to farm out if the finished instrument's value would warrant the work.

OP is jumping into the deep end of the pool starting to learn repair on a D-28...

[Zigeuner]

Before I would consider a rebuild-restoration such as the OP describes, I would do an in-depth cost-benefit analysis. A check of both Reverb and eBay shows that the typical 1973 D-28 will be listed from $3,500 to $3,800. Newer ones are listed at somewhat less.

Without seeing the broken parts, I'm guessing that there could be as much as 200 hours to do the work. At the end of the process, you are left with an instrument that will show the repairs as well as being either partially or completely refinished.

That would stop me at the outset.

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by redir

I do serious restoration work like this and I can tell you that it would be very difficult to offer advice without having the guitar and all it's parts in my hand. Serious restorations like this are not cookie cutter repairs, they are a case by case basis and often time when you outline an approach you change it to something else midway. Your descriptions are pretty good but pics are necessary and again, even then it's not going to be easy.

For example sometimes to fix a badly damaged top it's better to take all the braces off, sometimes it's not... and so on.

Some of the basic stuff like splintered wood under a poorly removed bridge are fairly standard. If the splinters are still on the bridge then remove them and glue them back in place on the top. If not then consider routing out a patch and gluing in a spruce fillet and leveling off.

It might be best to break this project out into parts, easy first going to more difficult. One step at a time and ask here for advice.

The offer of assistance from someone who routinely deals with this type of serious restoration work is greatly appreciated. I do understand what you are saying about your initial approach to a fix becoming a less than ideal solution and changing coarse midstream to something that becomes a more appropriate remedy. Some things you have mentined do come into play with this challenge. The braces on the original top have been removed and one of the X braces is broken which I did already repair but the other braces that I do have for the top I cleaned the old glue off of and inspected to see if they were worthy of reuse and they seemed fine to me. Both pairs of the short braces on each side were missing as well as the three soundhole reinforcing braces. The top is understandably fragel with all bracing removed and I think that some of the cracking evident in the top is just from mishandeling after the bracing was removed. That seems to be very minor type repairs to glue these back up. Some special attention may be needed to put proper clamping pressure on such a flimsy top though. The bridge was removed from this top and unfortunately not a lot of care was taken when doing so making it apparent that some of the type of repair you mentioned may be involved in getting this area repaired with some new spruce routed in and a new bridge plate possibly oversized as needed for structural reasons. The original bridge plate I have but it would be best replaced with something else. This being a 70's Martin the footprint of the bridge on the top seems to indicate that it may have been scooted back in its previous life. I can't imagine that all of the damage present under the bridge was created from only one removal. someone else removed the bridge from this top and reused it on the new top that was made and installed on this Martin and I have subsequently removed from this Martin. Moving on from the bridge and plate the rosette is quite damaged and I have removed most of the remains of the inlay and am faced with deciding just how is the best approach to fixing this. As the comming pictures will show there is missing wood from the entire underside of the fretboard extension off to the base side of the neck about an inch out and down into the top portion of the rosette. I will try to include some good pics of this area in particular as well as the damage under the bridge. These pictures WILL be coming soon. Thanks for your interest and patients.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Jimhar

The offer of assistance from someone who routinely deals with this type of serious restoration work is greatly appreciated. I do understand what you are saying about your initial approach to a fix becoming a less than ideal solution and changing coarse midstream to something that becomes a more appropriate remedy. Some things you have mentined do come into play with this challenge. The braces on the original top have been removed and one of the X braces is broken which I did already repair but the other braces that I do have for the top I cleaned the old glue off of and inspected to see if they were worthy of reuse and they seemed fine to me. Both pairs of the short braces on each side were missing as well as the three soundhole reinforcing braces. The top is understandably fragel with all bracing removed and I think that some of the cracking evident in the top is just from mishandeling after the bracing was removed. That seems to be very minor type repairs to glue these back up. Some special attention may be needed to put proper clamping pressure on such a flimsy top though. The bridge was removed from this top and unfortunately not a lot of care was taken when doing so making it apparent that some of the type of repair you mentioned may be involved in getting this area repaired with some new spruce routed in and a new bridge plate possibly oversized as needed for structural reasons. The original bridge plate I have but it would be best replaced with something else. This being a 70's Martin the footprint of the bridge on the top seems to indicate that it may have been scooted back in its previous life. I can't imagine that all of the damage present under the bridge was created from only one removal. someone else removed the bridge from this top and reused it on the new top that was made and installed on this Martin and I have subsequently removed from this Martin. Moving on from the bridge and plate the rosette is quite damaged and I have removed most of the remains of the inlay and am faced with deciding just how is the best approach to fixing this. As the comming pictures will show there is missing wood from the entire underside of the fretboard extension off to the base side of the neck about an inch out and down into the top portion of the rosette. I will try to include some good pics of this area in particular as well as the damage under the bridge. These pictures WILL be coming soon. Thanks for your interest and patients.

Being a 70's Martin they very well may have at some point tried to fis the intonation problem with a new bridge. I'm assuming you are doing this for fun, a challenge, and or for learning purposes. Because at some point a new top is the best option. I'm working on a guitar from the 1850's now with a totally destroyed top but it has signatures on it from the original maker and even a repair mans signature from 1896! So I will strive to save this top. But on a 70's Martin you could probably make a better new top. Again though, restorations are fun and you can learn a lot by doing it.

As for the bridge plate, with those 70's Martins, they were oversized and benefited from replacing them with a much smaller one. Typically about 1/8th inch wider than the bridge front and back.

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

One thing OP can do is contact Martin with the serial number and try to get as much information as may be available. Model, year made, species of wood

The information may help determine what's to do next, or to farm out if the finished instrument's value would warrant the work.

OP is jumping into the deep end of the pool starting to learn repair on a D-28...

With no life jacket or any knowledge of how to swim and floats like a rock!!! HAHAHA Thats a good idea on calling Martin and I did that a while ago only to find out that they were closed and the person I spoke with stated they could not even get into their building. My thoughts at the time were to get a top for the Martin with the rosette routed and get the rosette to go in it as well and bracing. At that time I had not located the original top though and was trying to assess whether the new top that waas put on the guitar was worth keeping. It had several problems and I did subsequently decide to remove it and do something else. It came off very clean and way easier than I thought it would. I still think that Martin is closed for business but I have not tried to contact them since then. I suppose I should do that but I don't think I want to persue having them do any of this work for me. At some point down the road if the attempts at repairing this top are not feasible or are not satisfactory in some way then a new top from Martin may be a solution or a new torified top set maybe. I do think that I will attempt the repair of the old top first though.

[JonWint]

You need to post pictures if you want accurate, practical recommendations. Pics are worth much more than your hundred's of words. Save time; post pictures.

The Guitar Makers Connection is the place to buy a new top. But, it's still closed even though that is where the Pop Up Shop is located. I'm waiting for it to open. It's the cheapest place to buy parts.

A 28-style top usually with the rosette installed varies form $30 to $100 for Sitka, Engelman, Alpine, or Red Spruce.

"MARTIN'S SYCAMORE STREET VISITOR CENTER REMAINS CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC
Due to the ongoing COVID-19 Pandemic, The Martin Guitar facility at 510 Sycamore Street in Nazareth, Pennsylvania remains closed to the public. This includes Factory Tours, the Visitor Center, the Martin Museum, the 1833 Shop, the Martin Repair Shop, and Guitar Makers Connection.

However, we have opened a pop-up shop across town at our historic North Street facility. The pop up shop is now open to the public. Please learn more about the pop-up shop here."

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by redir

Being a 70's Martin they very well may have at some point tried to fis the intonation problem with a new bridge. I'm assuming you are doing this for fun, a challenge, and or for learning purposes. Because at some point a new top is the best option. I'm working on a guitar from the 1850's now with a totally destroyed top but it has signatures on it from the original maker and even a repair mans signature from 1896! So I will strive to save this top. But on a 70's Martin you could probably make a better new top. Again though, restorations are fun and you can learn a lot by doing it.

As for the bridge plate, with those 70's Martins, they were oversized and benefited from replacing them with a much smaller one. Typically about 1/8th inch wider than the bridge front and back.

You have echoed my feelings exactly. I am sure this will be a great learning experience and a fun ride as well. I hope to learn a lot from you along the way. I am 68 years young and I view this guitar as a great adventure. Retirement is great so far. I was think for a while that I should probably get a new torrified top for this Martin but then thought what a learning experience I would miss. My life has taught me well that you learn by doing. Its the best way. I'm sure many would disagree though. I find myself in this situation where I had this martin land in my lap for free. Even less considering that I got the guitar, the wood to fix it, two new neck blanks and frets and fretboards and truss rods and tuners and some tools and it will not be free for I do have to provide my time. I will enjoy that part though. Thats my pay for doing this. Anyway my plan is to see this project through and then maybe build a couple of guitars and if the Martin doesnt sound up to my expectations I may replace the original top. I told my wife before I went over to get this guitar making equipment and wood that I always wanted a Martin guitar and she went with me and I told her that it turned out to be my lucky day. lol

Where did you find a 1850 guitar? Someone have you fixing it for them or is it yours? You should put some pics of that repair up.

[Fathand]

For fun, I did a quick online quote on a torrefied top joined, thicknessed to .110", profiled with rosette installed from LMI, and came up with $135. Sounds reasonable if you want to save a lot of work, not sure if they have D-28 style rosettes. They do have all the tools.

Martin would not have built your guitar with a torrefied top but that's up to you.

I do like your idea of using as many original parts as possible as fun/ learning experience/ bragging rights. You will probably get a decent guitar out of it.

I am not sure what a 70's D28 with a lot of major repairs goes for these days but I am sure it is less than the cost of a reputable repair person doing the work.

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by Fathand

For fun, I did a quick online quote on a torrefied top joined, thicknessed to .110", profiled with rosette installed from LMI, and came up with $135. Sounds reasonable if you want to save a lot of work, not sure if they have D-28 style rosettes. They do have all the tools.

Martin would not have built your guitar with a torrefied top but that's up to you.

I do like your idea of using as many original parts as possible as fun/ learning experience/ bragging rights. You will probably get a decent guitar out of it.

I am not sure what a 70's D28 with a lot of major repairs goes for these days but I am sure it is less than the cost of a reputable repair person doing the work.

The torrefied top is something that I have given some thought to. One thing I read about the torrified tops is that they are not subject to humidity changes as an added benefit from the process. I don't know where I read that but it would be a nice feature if true. I am not terribly concerned with the value of the guitar as I have little to no cost involved in the guitar. This does take the pressure off a good bit. My main concern is doing proper repair work to this guitar as much as I can looking for a very good tonal result. I am going to try to stay original as possible but the value loss of the instrument I hope is at it's lowest point right now and can only go up from here. I am only planning to persue fixes that would be considered within the confines of accepted practices. I may have to color outside the lines a bit out of necessite to enable a structurally stable situation considering the condition of this top. It is what it is in that regard though. I will be hoping for the best and hope to one day soon end up with a viable instrument.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Jimhar

You have echoed my feelings exactly. I am sure this will be a great learning experience and a fun ride as well. I hope to learn a lot from you along the way. I am 68 years young and I view this guitar as a great adventure. Retirement is great so far. I was think for a while that I should probably get a new torrified top for this Martin but then thought what a learning experience I would miss. My life has taught me well that you learn by doing. Its the best way. I'm sure many would disagree though. I find myself in this situation where I had this martin land in my lap for free. Even less considering that I got the guitar, the wood to fix it, two new neck blanks and frets and fretboards and truss rods and tuners and some tools and it will not be free for I do have to provide my time. I will enjoy that part though. Thats my pay for doing this. Anyway my plan is to see this project through and then maybe build a couple of guitars and if the Martin doesnt sound up to my expectations I may replace the original top. I told my wife before I went over to get this guitar making equipment and wood that I always wanted a Martin guitar and she went with me and I told her that it turned out to be my lucky day. lol

Where did you find a 1850 guitar? Someone have you fixing it for them or is it yours? You should put some pics of that repair up.

Wonderful! Good luck on the restoration. And when you run into snags come back to this thread and you will get some good advice here.