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  #16  
Old 01-19-2022, 09:19 AM
Jimmy Recard Jimmy Recard is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly View Post
If you are going to get picky about the word dreadnaught then shouldn't they be 12 frets like the first dreadnaughts?
A 12 fret dreadnought built today would unlikely be more than a curiosity. The epitome of a modern dreadnought is the D18/D28, which is very different to a J45.
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  #17  
Old 01-19-2022, 09:24 AM
J Patrick J Patrick is offline
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…all Martin D guitars whether 12 or 14 frets are Dreadnoughts….the same goes for all copies of them by other companies….

….all Gibson J’s are Jumbos…the same goes for all the copies by other companies….

…this because back in the early 1930’s Martin named their largest bodied flat top acoustics Dreadnoughts and Gibson named theirs Jumbos…

…is there any more to it than that?….I don’t think so…
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  #18  
Old 01-19-2022, 09:29 AM
Rosewood99 Rosewood99 is offline
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And it matters because.....
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  #19  
Old 01-19-2022, 09:30 AM
ewalling ewalling is offline
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I consider it a dread because of its size and shape. Like a dread, the curve between the upper and lower bouts is not deep like that of the J200. For me, a jumbo has that deep waist.
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  #20  
Old 01-19-2022, 09:32 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly View Post
If you are going to get picky about the word dreadnaught then shouldn't they be 12 frets like the first dreadnaughts?
Ahhh!!!! So the 14 fret ones are actually "cruisers" not "dreadnaughts".
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  #21  
Old 01-19-2022, 09:46 AM
Jimmy Recard Jimmy Recard is offline
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And it matters because.....
Because this is the acoustic guitar forum…..
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  #22  
Old 01-19-2022, 10:00 AM
Rosewood99 Rosewood99 is offline
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Because this is the acoustic guitar forum…..
Still don't understand why it matters what you call it.
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  #23  
Old 01-19-2022, 10:06 AM
Mycroft Mycroft is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Recard View Post
We’re accustomed to referring to J45s (and the extended family) as slope shouldered dreadnoughts, but are they really dreadnoughts? Are all J45s dreadnoughts, but all dreadnoughts aren’t J45s?
A J45 is a Dreadnought because the term "Dreadnought" has become generalized to mean any large guitar with a fat waist. Similarly to how "aspirin" once referred to a specific brand of pill, with a specific drug made by a specific manufacturer. But other manufacturers began making the same pill/drug, and eventually any pill with that drug became generally known as "aspirin." Martin let the term "Dreadnought" become generalized. (In Trademark Law we call that becoming Generic, when it becomes the term for a type of thing instead of being the identifier of a source of a thing.)

So yes, a J45 is a Dreadnought, but not all Dreadnoughts are J45s.
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  #24  
Old 01-19-2022, 10:10 AM
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Honkycat Honkycat is offline
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You’ve done it now!
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  #25  
Old 01-19-2022, 10:28 AM
sinistral sinistral is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
A J45 is a Dreadnought because the term "Dreadnought" has become generalized to mean any large guitar with a fat waist. Similarly to how "aspirin" once referred to a specific brand of pill, with a specific drug made by a specific manufacturer. But other manufacturers began making the same pill/drug, and eventually any pill with that drug became generally known as "aspirin." Martin let the term "Dreadnought" become generalized. (In Trademark Law we call that becoming Generic, when it becomes the term for a type of thing instead of being the identifier of a source of a thing.)

So yes, a J45 is a Dreadnought, but not all Dreadnoughts are J45s.
This is a good example—“Aspirin” was originally Bayer’s trademark (although Martin never trademarked the name “Dreadnought”). Another example is the use of “Coke” to describe a carbonated cola beverage.

Customer: “I’d like a Coke.”
Salesperson: “I’m sorry, we don’t serve Coke—we have Pepsi. Would you like a Pepsi?”
Customer: “You mean that sicky-sweet Coke? Ok.”

Imagine a similar conversation at a music store in the late 1930s, before every big guitar was called a dreadnought:

Customer: “I’m looking to buy a dreadnought.”
Salesperson: “I’m sorry, we’re not a Martin dealer—we’re a Gibson dealer. Would you like a Jumbo?”
Customer: “You mean one of those slope-shouldered dreadnoughts? Ok.”
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  #26  
Old 01-19-2022, 10:31 AM
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blindboyjimi blindboyjimi is offline
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The answer is already here. Martin came up with the name dreadnaught and Gibson answered with the Jumbo. The Jumbo however is almost equally thick from the tail to the waist. The J-35/45 are more shallow in the upper bout. Martin also has a Jumbo shape but it’s basically a deep body OM shape - 1” larger all around and dreadnaught depth. J-35/45s have been referred to as slope shoulder dreads for as long as I’ve been alive. That’s good enough for me. So the answer for me is, "yes".
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  #27  
Old 01-19-2022, 11:03 AM
scotchnspeed scotchnspeed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Patrick View Post
…all Martin D guitars whether 12 or 14 frets are Dreadnoughts….the same goes for all copies of them by other companies….

….all Gibson J’s are Jumbos…the same goes for all the copies by other companies….

…this because back in the early 1930’s Martin named their largest bodied flat top acoustics Dreadnoughts and Gibson named theirs Jumbos…

…is there any more to it than that?….I don’t think so…
I must throw in my agreement. A J45 is a "Jumbo" because that is what Gibson calls it, and the shapes/dimensions are substantially different.

Apart from the slope-shoulder design, a J45 is 16-16.125" at the lower bout, and usually a touch deeper (at least my SJ is). The Martin dread is 15 5/8" - that is far smaller than the differences we see and discuss in other body styles all the time on this forum.
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  #28  
Old 01-19-2022, 02:18 PM
ewalling ewalling is offline
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Originally Posted by Rosewood99 View Post
Still don't understand why it matters what you call it.
We talk about it because it's interesting, not because it 'matters' in some functional way.
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  #29  
Old 01-19-2022, 02:37 PM
619TF 619TF is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Recard View Post
We’re accustomed to referring to J45s (and the extended family) as slope shouldered dreadnoughts, but are they really dreadnoughts? Aren’t they Jumbos? I’ve played D18/D28s and when I play a J45/J35/J29/southern jumbo etc, they feel as different as when I play an OM/00 etc. If it’s only related to the 16” lower bout, then why aren’t Grand Auditoriums called something like “narrow waisted dreadnoughts”.

Edit: I’m not literally asking about the “J” designation in J45. Its well know that (1) Gibson has made some really daft naming decisions (2) Lumping J45s (J45 as the generic term for the SSD type/class of guitar, not the actual J45) in with dreadnoughts has clear historical roots.

I’m more making a philosophical naval gazing comment about whether, with the benefit of hindsight, it is fair that the J45 (see 2 above) not be recognised as its own thing. Are all J45s dreadnoughts, but all dreadnoughts aren’t J45s?
Maybe this will help. Maybe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng2qp2zAcvQ
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  #30  
Old 01-19-2022, 04:04 PM
zombywoof zombywoof is offline
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Again, throughout the 1930s into the early-1940s Gibson's catalogs did not list models solely by the "J" designation. Jumbo was incorporated into the model name. So you will not find listings for say a J35 or J55. What you will see in big bold letters is guitars listed as the Jumbo "35" and Jumbo "55". While the J45 does not appear in the 1942 catalog the earliest post-WWII catalog listing the model I know of dates to 1947 and here it is listed simply as the J45 with Jumbos appearing at the top of the page to describe the entire line.
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