Price point and name bias

[sabatini]

Yamaha makes steel string acoustic guitars that sell for $4000. They are excellent guitars and probably worth every penny, but I would never buy one.

Why? Because Yamaha also makes thousands of $200 guitars and if I am playing a $4000 guitar I want people to be appropriately impressed and not mistake it for a $200 guitar.

Before you bother to tell me how stupid my thinking is, let me acknowledge that I know that. But I am not alone. Being seen with a Martin, Gibson, Taylor, Goodall, etc. is an ego boost for many of us. It can be an X series Martin or a 214 Taylor and many people will perceive it to be superior to a $4000 Yamaha because they have slotted those brands into their mental ranking. The Yamaha may be, probably is, a far superior instrument but our egos won't let us embrace it.

Of course, there are exceptions. We all know talented players making wonderful music on unpretentious guitars. The worse you are, like me, the more it seems you want your guitar to make the impression your music can't.

[musicman1951]

Originally Posted by Rev Roy

What you are describing is brand bias. I try to follow my ears, not brands. But in my experience you generally get what you pay for in guitars like most other stuff...

I'm with the Rev. I would add that the only way you can become a "name brand" is to consistently put out a quality product. When you pay for the name (which certainly happens) you are paying for a solid track record.

There is a brief period where new brands make a quality product for under market value, but word gets around and then the price goes up.

I don't know anyone who stays in business selling run of the mill products at high prices.

But if it sounds good, it is good. I'd buy the one that pleased my ear (I would also be amazed).

[fartamis]

I'm someone who doesn't look at the brand ... I'm more of a good value for money type. When I bought my Seagull artist mosaic CW I had also tried big brands at 2x the price and the Seagull had such a good quality of sound of manufacture and finish at 2x cheaper. I had a budget of 3000$ and it only cost me 1500$ CDN + tax. And every time I play it I'm in heaven .

[Br1ck]

I can't tell you how many people have come up to me being astounded at how good my Epiphone Texan sounds. Amazing for a $500 guitar. Well, it's a '65 Epiphone Texan. It bugs me a bit.

Less often I'm asked if my Guild is a Westerly Guild. It is, given it was build in Rode Island in 1970. But that's not what they mean. The flip side is when some kid, to me that's someone under 30, says he got a Martin, and pulls out a MIM guitar, so the branding both inflates and deflates perception.

Now Eastman is interesting. I do not believe they would have bought Bourgeois if they thought they could sell $4000 Eastmans in the US market. It remains to be seen if they can sell Chinese Bourgeois for $4000 in the US market, and then see if US Bourgeois guitars lose their cache.

Another interesting thing that ties in with the subject is the new Bozeman made Texans. I don't think this has been done after making a brand the off shore second tier product. I look forward to the day when someones says they didn't know the Texan was being made as a relic too.

A lot of branding is perception. Marketing aims to control perception. An interesting offshoot of this is a conversation I had with a Gibson dealer wondering how many more Sheryl Crow acoustics he could have sold. A lot of guys wouldn't buy one. I and a lot of others thought it was the best Gibson on the wall.

[bfm612]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

I can't tell you how many people have come up to me being astounded at how good my Epiphone Texan sounds. Amazing for a $500 guitar. Well, it's a '65 Epiphone Texan. It bugs me a bit.

Phoebe Bridgers has complained about male guitarists in particular who don't seem to think that a successful musician should be playing Epiphones (with the added implication that women need to be taught about guitars). An excerpt from the Guitar.com interview:

“Dude, it’s insane,” she insists, rolling her eyes. “My favourite one used to be with my Epiphone Frontier. I used to play that guitar all the time, because Ryan [Adams] gave to me, and it’s a very nice guitar. But dudes would be coming up to me at shows like, [disdainful] ‘Wow… an Epiphone…’"

[edward993]

I am always baffled as to why threads where folks insist on discussing brand names and price continually have the underlying agenda that one is paying "too much" if one buys the x or y brand. Why can't folks understand that each person sees "value" their own way? There is simply nothing wrong with paying more for something you find worth the upcharge. Nor is there anything wrong with paying less because one sees value differently. It really is just so easy.

Edward

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

Now Eastman is interesting. I do not believe they would have bought Bourgeois if they thought they could sell $4000 Eastmans in the US market. It remains to be seen if they can sell Chinese Bourgeois for $4000 in the US market, and then see if US Bourgeois guitars lose their cache.

I don't know how this business venture is going to turn out, but If I were looking to buy another Lewiston made Bourgeois, I wouldn't hesitate in the least bit! As long as Dana has his hand in it, their made in America models will still be phenomenal! I'll have to get my hands on a few of the made in China models to see how they are, but I'm sure if Dana is voicing the tops here in America, they're gonna be pretty awesome too!

[Silly Moustache]

If I may, I'd like to voice an opinion from a British POV, although I wouldn't assume to be speaking for all British, or European guitarists.

I began my musical life back in the early '60s playing drums. Initially, I played the school's set of British made AJAX drums, and later my own set of Premiers (Thanks Dad). However, drummers we saw on TV and on album covers played Ludwig, Gretsch and Rogers and I/we all kind of assumed that they were the brands to have, although way out of reach for most.

Why? Because the music we loved was primarily American.

That is why I always wanted American built guitars - because that is where the music I have always loved.

My first American guitar was a Harmony H1265, and I could have bought a Levin (Goya in the US) for the same price which was surely a far better instrument, but although I had close connections with Sweden, I didn't connect musically.

There weren't a lot of British acoustic guitars available and those that were came from a few one man bands, and I had two built for me by a friend, Chris Eccleshall, in the '70s. My wife commissioned a 12fret 00 for my 50th birthday and it sits behind me in my little office and is the guitar I use for working out numbers, and it sounds simply wonderful with somewhat more than a nod to the Martin sound.

On record covers I saw mostly Martins and Gibsons, so when I got into the blues then bluegrass they wre the brands I sought.

Whilst I now play mostly Collings guitars they are made to Martin pre 1934 designs but I have two Eastman guitars an archtop, and a version of a Martin style 0-28 (E20-p) They are fine instruments, and I'm not going to say "for the price"!

Both American and Chinese instruments are "off shore" to me.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by sabatini

Before you bother to tell me how stupid my thinking is, let me acknowledge that I know that. But I am not alone.

The only way to explain Sturgis. :-)

[Social Exodus]

I am learning, slowly but surely, to avoid places where they sell guitars in the first place. At the risk of out and out blasphemy, I think I have enough guitars right now.

I bought the ones I have (save one) based on a couple of identifiable criteria:

• They had to sound great
• They had to play great
• They had to be potential classic heirlooms for my descendants
• They had to be made by craftsman/artisans in my own country

My 1978 Yamaha 365s was my very first guitar. I bought it with my own money following Air Force boot camp and tech school in early 1979. It was made in Taiwan but otherwise fits the criteria I set. The GS Mini (made in Mexico) was bought simply to have an expendable guitar to risk flying with oft times.

Mind you, I have no problems with the build qualities of off-shore builders these days -- it's just that people here in the US need our support in whatever ways we can give it to them IMHO.

[MickZ]

I don't care about what I will leave to my descendants (who couldn't care less) or brand marketing. I concern myself with tone and playability. Established brands have built their reputations on these characteristics and are relatively consistent. Everything is subjective, so get what you like. Marketing can only go so far. Your ears and hands are the deciding factors.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

At the same time, the Canadians found a way to make fine-sounding, no-frills guitars at Working Joe/Jane prices...

And they still do!

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by edward993

I am always baffled as to why threads where folks insist on discussing brand names and price continually have the underlying agenda that one is paying "too much" if one buys the x or y brand. Why can't folks understand that each person sees "value" their own way? There is simply nothing wrong with paying more for something you find worth the upcharge. Nor is there anything wrong with paying less because one sees value differently. It really is just so easy.

Edward

It’s a human nature issue that I’ve been chastised for even mentioning, so tread lightly.

I find it fascinating when there are discussions of high priced guitars and people invariably have to find various faults with the pricing and with anyone who would be foolish enough to buy one.

[baw3]

I agree with Pura Vida, we have just got to get those headstock taxes lowered.

[zombywoof]

In 55+ years I have never owned an offshore-made guitar. I admit it makes absolutely no sense and is one of those biases which has not paid off. The days when imported guitars were generally low quality high markup instruments have long passed. And it has absolutely nothing to do with price point as I have also surrounded myself with Harmonys and Kays. But I would still rather own a Harmony Sovereign H1260 or Kay K24 than an Eastman or what-have-you.