#1
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examples of bad topwood and runout
There was a recent discussion, with some nice diagram examples given that illustrated runout. This post extends that conversation.
I recently order a small soundboard piece. What I ordered was AAAA/AAAAA or Builder's Reserve Master Grade Western Red Cedar. I am attaching this to a genuine piece from "The Tree" and was very serious and deliberate about wanting high grade cedar. What I got was deck planking. But I thought it could be used to illustrate several different flaws and quality problems. Since the tonewood supplier responded very rapidly with a refund to make things right, I will not disparage their name. They are not a known AGF sponsor nor are they active here in these forums. The way I would describe "runout" is to compare it to a submarine: As the sub moves ahead, if it starts rising to break through the surface, it will break through the surface. That trail it leaves behind and how it breaks through the surface and is partly underwater and partly above is what happens when a wood grain starts rising toward the surface. This picture shows a HUGE runout, indicative of a big grain that is "rising" along the length of the piece. Midway, it breaks the surface, leaving agrain that is incomplete and therefore looks blemished. This one happens to be a dark grain. The side view shows clearly how the grains are severely angled and not parallel to the surface. Or, better said, the surface cut is not parallel to the grain. The end of the board had terrible tearout from the cutoff saw. Cedar is prone to this but technique can avoid this and this is a terrible example of a rookie cut. The other end had some sort of putty colored stains on it. The top was supposed to be Master Grade (AAAAA+) finished to a .125"-.130" thickness. One side was unfinished and the board was 1/4" thick. Worse yet the thickness varied greatly across a very small width. The thickness changed .020" over a 4" length. So, firstly - it was cathartic to rant about this a little bit here - this was there top of the line Master Grade Builder's Reserve, finished cedar top wood! But, if anything good might come from this, I thought it might be educational to illustrate some quality flaws. (I did get my money back, but I'm still aghast at their "quality")
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Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter" 000-15 / GC7 / GA3-12 / SB2-C / SB2-Cp / AVC-11MHx / AC-240 |
#2
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Well at the very least it's not quartered very well. At what point do we call something riff sawn? For that reason alone I wouldn't build with it.
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The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. |
#3
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Not sure why you would order a top finished to .125"-.130" especially in Cedar. You may want to leave it that thick and still you have to join. I much prefer tops closer to the actual thickness you received. It very common to have tops come with a lot of the things you mentioned. Fuzzy ends and surface, variation in thickness etc are run of the mill, pardon pun. Runout does not look that bad to me. Killers for me would be the off quarter, color and wavy grain. Certainly low quality wood in my opinion.
Tom
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#4
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Hate to see their student grade.
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#5
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I am building a guitar accessory box (think jewelry box) but making it look like a guitar with all the same binding and purfling and woods and even internal bracing.
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Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter" 000-15 / GC7 / GA3-12 / SB2-C / SB2-Cp / AVC-11MHx / AC-240 |
#6
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Did you let the vendor know that when you ordered it?
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The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. |
#7
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I respectfully suggest that a jewellery box really doesn't require a "builders' reserve, super deluxe, AAAAAAAAA, Master grade" guitar top. I've purchased 2x8" cedar decking, and resawed it, that is still the best cedar I've ever seen or heard. Any straight-grained, quartered, blemish-free piece of cedar would work wonderfully for your box top. Check out your local fence/deck supply stores. You'll pay a fraction of the price than for "builders' reserve" guitar tops.
Last edited by charles Tauber; 12-05-2013 at 02:01 PM. |
#8
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Yes I did tell him what I wanted very specifically.
Good idea Charles. Some more info on this project: Last year, I wanted a very decorative, high-quality desktop box for my guitar accessories (capo, Snark, picks, etc.). I also specifically wanted it to scream “acoustic guitar”. And this was a good excuse for me to practice some beginner luthiery techniques. So I made my it out of rosewood sides, with a sitka top, ivoroid binding and abalam purfling. I made my own kerfing strips for the inside and carved some braces for the lid. It came out well and sits proudly, in use, on my desk. It looks exactly like a very traditional acoustic guitar – albeit rectangular, but it evokes that whole “acoustic guitar” image. As my first attempt, I see some areas I would like to improve upon (corner finish, binding miters, etc.) Along comes my new knowledge of “The Tree” and I am smitten. My modest talent and small collection could not justify a whole guitar made from “The Tree” but I very much want a piece of that luthiery history. So, I hatch a plan: I will make a new and improved guitar accessory box – this time incorporating higher quality materials and my favorite elements: “The Tree” sides, cedar top, paua abalone purfling, nitro finish. I procured some high quality “The Tree” cutoffs of the perfect size and am sourcing the rest. I just ordered my Paua abalone this week. The only main element I can’t decide on is which binding (I am thinking ebony or bloodwood). And this is a great and fun activity for those long winter days inside the house.
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Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter" 000-15 / GC7 / GA3-12 / SB2-C / SB2-Cp / AVC-11MHx / AC-240 |
#9
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I'd agree that that is not a high-grade top, but I'd beg to differ with almost all of the conclusions you have drawn regarding it. I see, for example, no convincing evidence of 'run out' in the photos. This is not to say it doesn't have any, just that the things that are making you think it does are not really symptoms of run out. I will say that it can take along time to lean to 'read' wood properly, and it's easy to make mistakes.
The best cedar top I ever saw was a shingle that one of my students picked up and used to make a tenor uke. It was light and stiff, with fine, uniform grain and color, and no run out. If he'd had two you could almost have joined them for a guitar top. Good wood is where you find it, if you know how to look. |
#10
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Run out occurs when the cut is made obliquely to the run of the grain. If you take a cylinder and slice it at an angle, you get an ellipse at the plane of intersection. If the cut is made obliquely to the run of the grain you will see grains that do not run the length of the wood, because they are not parallel.
In the photo, one grain line in particular is very dark and happens to be very short-cut because its on a huge angle to the cut plane. If you look at the edge photo, particularly on the lower left, you can clearly see the grains diving down through the depth of the wood. I'm not sure how you can disagree, with most of my statements. I requested and ordered a finished .13" thick top board. What I got was a board, unfinished on one side that ran .22"-.26". It was undeniably terrible quality.
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Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter" 000-15 / GC7 / GA3-12 / SB2-C / SB2-Cp / AVC-11MHx / AC-240 |
#11
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Fazool, I'm posting this not to rain on your parade, but because I don't want inexperienced readers of this forum to get a bunch of wrong ideas about tops. Sorry, but almost everything you wrote about the top is wrong if it is being judged as a guitar top (rather than a piece of finished box wood).
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Irrelevant to a builder. It is outside the guitar pattern. Not a downgrade. Quote:
What you didn't mention is the most serious flaw, the rift cut, which makes this a low grade top. It's not hard to find dead quartered cedar. I would expect this top to be floppy; cedar varies a lot in cross grain stiffness and well-quartered wood is essential. The dark lines are a cosmetic downgrade, as I mentioned earlier. So you are absolutely right that you did not get a AAAAA Mastergrade top. Actually, I avoid any dealer who uses more than 4 A's. By old-school grading, AAAA IS Mastergrade--a perfect top. What I see is a communication problem. You wanted a finished board for making a box. You should have bought it from a hobby shop supplier. Tonewood suppliers are not in the business of supplying finished wood. Sorry for all the corrections, but this is an opportunity for education, and I don't want to see a lot of misinformation propagated.
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#12
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Again, apology not necessary. I respect most of what you said with one important caveat: As the buying customer, I had a stated expectation for a finished piece of top-quality wood. What I got was significantly not that.
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Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter" 000-15 / GC7 / GA3-12 / SB2-C / SB2-Cp / AVC-11MHx / AC-240 Last edited by fazool; 12-05-2013 at 01:00 PM. |
#13
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indeed. that wood is cut pretty far off quarter.
these might be helpful: http://www.nhla.com/assets/1603/2011_rules_book.pdf http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-.../dp/1561583588 Last edited by arie; 12-05-2013 at 02:26 PM. |
#14
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I might get that book.
The rules PDF seemed pretty generally for non-luthiery applications. The wood selections were different, it didn't discuss runout nor did it include comparable grading. I think the general topics are relevant but only coarsely so.
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Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter" 000-15 / GC7 / GA3-12 / SB2-C / SB2-Cp / AVC-11MHx / AC-240 |
#15
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The left piece is wood sold as a guitar top, the one on the right is a 2x6 fence board I saw some promise in. Mind you it took some looking for it. Along the way I found some cedar that was not cut on quarter that would not be suitable for a guitar but the grain and color was so nice that I had to pick it up in case I wanted to make a small ornamental something in the future. For under $3, why not? Quote:
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