Rev. Gary Davis/Stephan Grossman

JanVigne · #1 07-26-2013, 09:07 AM

I mentioned in another thread that I had picked up two books from a used book store. The second book is "Rev. Gary Davis/Blues Guitar" compiled by Grosssman. Most of us probably know Grossman spent several years with Davis learning to play in the styles of the blues players from earlier years. Davis must have been quite someone to learn from according to Grossman. His opinions and his ability to recreate the styles of other players and expand upon them at a moment's notice must have been remarkable to see and hear. Like studying painting with DaVinci.

My issue with this book and the other early Grossman collections I have is his TAB style. No doubt, Grossman makes the point notation can only take you so far in understanding how a performance of any song might have been played. While his TABs for these pieces attempt to make the style of play more evident, it is his own creation and not all that much like other TAB's you're likely to find. The book has a copyright of 1974. TAB was somewhat developed by that time as indicated by the other book I picked up, "Six Early Blues Guitarists" by Woody Mann.

But my eyes cross when I try Grossman's TAB's. Does anyone else have a similar problem with Grossman's work? Do you eventually learn to read his style? Or, do you go ahead and copy the work to a more conventional form?

Toby Walker · #2 07-26-2013, 09:18 AM

I admit at first the tab you speak about was a bit difficult to get used to. At that time there were only a couple of books out there... Happy Traum's Fingerpicking Styles For Guitar (which used traditional tab) and Stefan's stuff.

I don't have an issue at all with the way Stefan chose to illustrate tab. I'm just happy that Stefan brought all of that great music into our lives.

The other point I'd like to mention is that while Stefan's tab may not be 100% accurate (nobody's tab really is) it does give you the basic tools you need in order to figure out the songs. From his tabs you can glean the tunings, chord shapes and positions on the neck those old blues guys used. The rest quite frankly is up to you to make it your own.

Silly Moustache · #3 07-26-2013, 09:25 AM

Jan, I have problems with any sort of tab.
When I asked a bluegrass camp proprietor if he would ask the tutors to advise in advance whether or not they were to use TAB - I was -effectively - banned from the mailing list.

the last time I was there, I found the endless sheets of A4 mind-numbing, or perhaps soul -destroying. I just worked out what I wanted by ........listening.

Then other students came to me and whispered - "can you show me that?"

I think that it depends on how you "think" music.
If you are accustomed to learning it from paperwork- as most classical players are (with notation) or if you have the types of mind that can easily transfer TAB to music- then fine.

I have determined that I "think" music aurally. It goes into my ears, and something in my brain analyses it (I may need to twiddle about on the guitar, or mandolin to find the flow/notes etc.) but it happens somehow...and sometimes not.

Neither (MHO) is right nor wrong,. but perhaps you might find that sitting back with your cans on and eyes closed, and listening closely to the track over and over, and perhaps with a guitar in your lap, you may find all the notes YOU want.

Another aspect of TEB (or notation) that concerns me is that some seem to think that if it is written -that is the only way to play it, whereas every tune/song you hear is only a "version" and you can (or should) make it your own with your own style and imagination.

Music is like cooking - a recipe is only a guideline - not a formula.

I wonder if I'll get into trouble again for my opinion?

RRuskin · #4 07-26-2013, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JanVigne

.......................................My issue with this book and the other early Grossman collections I have is his TAB style. No doubt, Grossman makes the point notation can only take you so far in understanding how a performance of any song might have been played. While his TABs for these pieces attempt to make the style of play more evident, it is his own creation and not all that much like other TAB's you're likely to find. The book has a copyright of 1974. TAB was somewhat developed by that time as indicated by the other book I picked up, "Six Early Blues Guitarists" by Woody Mann.

But my eyes cross when I try Grossman's TAB's. Does anyone else have a similar problem with Grossman's work? Do you eventually learn to read his style? Or, do you go ahead and copy the work to a more conventional form?

Although I write TAB for students, I've never used it to learn anything because the early examples I saw back in the 1960's were poorly done with no timing information and more likely as not, inaccurate. Is that your complaint?

AX17609 · #5 07-26-2013, 10:50 AM

Being a person of limited talent and short memory, I use tab a lot. I've used a lot of Grossman's tabs, and I haven't had trouble with them. But, I have had trouble with the tabs in "Rev. Gary Davis/Blues Guitar". I don't know what the problem is, but it might be that RGD is just difficult to pick up from tab. At best, it's a kind of reminder of what's going on, but it doesn't begin to describe the style.

shawlie · #6 07-26-2013, 11:01 AM

At the library they have one (maybe two) of his earlier books - and I find them nearly impossible to follow. But his other books are all very clear, of course (measures that make sense and notes/values are given). Seems like there's an awful lot of overlap in his books, too, so chances are they might be found in another one of his books (or his company).

Speaking of difficult tab - I have a second-hand book by Robert Baxter ("Baxter's Fingerpicking blues and Ragtime Manual"). Great songs but I never could figure out his "Baxter-Tab".

JanVigne · #7 07-26-2013, 11:20 AM

"Although I write TAB for students, I've never used it to learn anything because the early examples I saw back in the 1960's were poorly done with no timing information and more likely as not, inaccurate. Is that your complaint?"

Nope. Wish it was. TABs or notation are simply a guide post IMO. Particularly when you're dealing with music that was seldom played in the same way twice.

It's really Grossman's way of writing TAB that is difficult. First, it's all handwritten so you're not looking at a nice clean sheet of paper like you are with most stuff today. But his way of suggesting the feel of the song is just odd, plus he doesn't use a conventional six string outline.

You'd have to see it to understand the problem I think. I'll see if I can find some of it on the web when I have more time to spend. Or if anyone has something they can post or link to, that would be much appreciated.

JanVigne · #8 07-26-2013, 11:22 AM

"I don't have an issue at all with the way Stefan chose to illustrate tab. I'm just happy that Stefan brought all of that great music into our lives."

No doubt, he is as important as Allen Lomax when it comes to a music resource Just wish I could more easily make sense of what I'm seeing on the page.

DaveKell · #9 07-26-2013, 12:38 PM

I must be the weird duck with respect to Grossman's tab style. I can read it like I used to sight read sheet music on the electric bass. It's a lot faster for me to comprehend than a number with a line through it. I've talked with Jim Bruce a few times on Skype. He has a dvd instructional series that is excellent for old blues, much like Grossman's. Jim's teaching style is more straightforward and faster to comprehend IMO. I had planned on suggesting to him he switch to Grossman's style of tab. I even made a post awhile back about having laid out an entire page of blank Grossman style tab I would email to anyone who wanted it to retranscribe tab they are using to it. I had several people who got it thank me for the effort. Apparently there are some of us who find it faster to sight read with his tab.

RodB · #10 07-26-2013, 12:50 PM

When I came across Stefan's TAB in the mid 70's it was a revelation - for me it worked great. Took a lot of the hard work out of figuring out tuning and what was going on. In the end there's often more than one way of taking it from there anyway... I guess it's what you are used to. If I think back, I would say it got me started on ragtime and the like.

shawlie · #11 07-26-2013, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveKell

I must be the weird duck with respect to Grossman's tab style. I can read it like I used to sight read sheet music on the electric bass. It's a lot faster for me to comprehend than a number with a line through it. I've talked with Jim Bruce a few times on Skype. He has a dvd instructional series that is excellent for old blues, much like Grossman's. Jim's teaching style is more straightforward and faster to comprehend IMO. I had planned on suggesting to him he switch to Grossman's style of tab. I even made a post awhile back about having laid out an entire page of blank Grossman style tab I would email to anyone who wanted it to retranscribe tab they are using to it. I had several people who got it thank me for the effort. Apparently there are some of us who find it faster to sight read with his tab.

I agree - the tab in most of his books is very easy to read (just a little different, with the spaces like he does it). But in some of his older books (a couple I have seen) it's not quite as clear.

Possibly the same book as the one in the first post, here is a link to the book: book on amazon

You can see a few previews, after the interview there is a song in tab (page 23 in the book). To look at it, it seems there are only 6 measures of different lengths, cut off in unexpected places. I find it hard to read (but the music is included on a different page, of course - and trying again, after a few times, it starts to make sense).

Perhaps it's not the book in question, if not - sorry for the post. And don't get me wrong - I have quite a number of his books and have learned a lot from them, some really great songs he has transcribed. I go through them all the time.

JanVigne · #12 07-26-2013, 06:14 PM

"Possibly the same book as the one in the first post, here is a link to the book ... "

Yep! That's it. And the TAB system is shown on pg. 23 when you preview the book's contents. My copy is early though, no CD and Grossman doesn't even mention an included recording.

None of the songs are complete. The samples are intended to give you some insight into Davis' playing style.

The included interview is worth the price of the book IMO. You can see it in the Amazon preview.