Help with 1st PA purchase - Page 2

jjrubin · #16 06-15-2010, 03:05 PM

I respectfully disagree with much above. In my experience:

Dual speakers-on-a-stick places the players inside of, and behind (or perhaps in line with) the mains....great for cranking volume without feedback, but the trade-off is not being able to hear yourself (esp. vocals) clearly. I've seem some posts here describe positioning speakers in such a way as to hear them on stage and still not feed back into mics....good luck! Realistically this approach greatly benefits from -- in my experience requires -- monitor(s).

So now you've got two separate mixes to EQ and balance (mains and monitors), more expense, cables, and complexity -- and you'll never really know if the sound you're hearing on-stage is remotely what the audience is hearing. Plus the monitors themselves can cause feedback.

Still, at some level of venue size and volume required, this is the only way to go, as evidenced by house PAs. But they also have (relatively) big budgets and (usually) live sound engineers managing things. And they don't have to load-in/set-up and then reverse it all every gig.

If you've got an acoustic trio or smaller, doing your own sound, you owe it to yourself to check out the Bose L1 (Model II, not the Compact which like Fishman SA sounds great but doesn't have enough channels/EQ control).

Everyone has their own idea of the criteria for 'the holy grail' in this context. See mine in the current thread on Bose T1 in this section, or previous posts wrt L1.

chitz · #17 06-15-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoB/335

Is this one SoloAmp being used for 3 people running through it?

stube, it might help if you let us know what you plan on running through it as well as those suggesting the SoloAmp giving some details as to how it is being used.

I only use my soloamp for... well... er... SOLO! And if I play with my partner... He brings HIS! Then we hook en together for 2 guitars and 2 mics.

If any more can me done with them, I'd like to know how too.

alohachris · #18 06-15-2010, 05:27 PM

Aloha Job,

Good points about placement with the T1/LI Bose combo and the need for monitors for groups. With the budget of Stubewan in mind, I didn't bring up other better alternatives, just what might help him get started NOW within budget (I'm 'bout to black out here again, Bob. Can you believe it's me talking here?). And for three players, one LI Bose or SA for that matter, just won't cut it, period!

My years-long experience wth the LI, in a loud venue, showed me that no matter the placement, it didn't provide the coverage I as a soloist or in combos of two needed in such a setting. I always thought if I could get the bar owner to invest in two LI's that the problem could have been solved by a second speaker source.

I'm not saying that combos don't use LI's successfully, only that it seems to work best when each member of a combo or group has one. (And that's how Bose markets it too, for groups).

IMO, Two separate speaker sources are ALWAYS better than one for LIVE, no matter the technology, especially for combos of three like this with more vocals.

You're so right about the difficulty of being heard on stage, Jon. But with knowledge about speaker placement and (once again) GREAT EQ, hearing yourself or feeding back should not be a problem. Of course, for combos of three players, monitors need to be a part of the equation. - It's another rationale for combos or bands to use dual speaker sources - hearing yourself. That's why I told Stubewan to buy used so he could budget for extras, with monitors in mind.

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

BoB/335 · #19 06-15-2010, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjrubin

I respectfully disagree with much above. In my experience:

Dual speakers-on-a-stick places the players inside of, and behind (or perhaps in line with) the mains....great for cranking volume without feedback, but the trade-off is not being able to hear yourself (esp. vocals) clearly. I've seem some posts here describe positioning speakers in such a way as to hear them on stage and still not feed back into mics....good luck! Realistically this approach greatly benefits from -- in my experience requires -- monitor(s).

So now you've got two separate mixes to EQ and balance (mains and monitors), more expense, cables, and complexity -- and you'll never really know if the sound you're hearing on-stage is remotely what the audience is hearing. Plus the monitors themselves can cause feedback.

Still, at some level of venue size and volume required, this is the only way to go, as evidenced by house PAs. But they also have (relatively) big budgets and (usually) live sound engineers managing things. And they don't have to load-in/set-up and then reverse it all every gig.

If you've got an acoustic trio or smaller, doing your own sound, you owe it to yourself to check out the Bose L1 (Model II, not the Compact which like Fishman SA sounds great but doesn't have enough channels/EQ control).

Everyone has their own idea of the criteria for 'the holy grail' in this context. See mine in the current thread on Bose T1 in this section, or previous posts wrt L1.

That just "might" be a little over budget but I hear great things about the L1. Add a mixer and you'll be all set.

For the record, I've used my system 3 times now with the speakers slightly behind the performers. NO FEEDBACK issues at all and great sound for the performers. I just did sound for a solo concert and the soloist thanked me many times for the GREAT sound that HE heard. I guess there are so many different systems because a different fit for different people but sometimes the "facts" differ from "opinions".

BoB/335 · #20 06-15-2010, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chitz creek

Another quik plug for the Soloamp! BIG THUMBS UP!!! I replace my 500W PA with a Soloamp and it was the best thing I ever did sonically and weightwise!
Good bang for the buck too.

Why would you make the above suggestion for someone requesting suggestions for a 3 person project and THEN state that you use TWO SoloAmps for a Duo???

BoB/335 · #21 06-15-2010, 05:37 PM

ALOHA CHRIS!!!!! I am VERY proud of you Bro!

jjrubin · #22 06-15-2010, 07:35 PM

Yeah, my first thought at the OP was actually 'get more budget!'...

Chris, Bob, I know you guys say it can be done (no monitors), but working with pretty good stuff (EONs and Mackie) it was always a struggle. And even when we had separate monitors (from the house), THAT was a struggle to manage ourselves. Great sound with this trad. approach happened. not surprisingly, when we played a room with a live sound guy in back and good acoustics.

I submit to you guys that when you base this on your own stage config, it's not apples-to-apples because you have a live sound engineer...YOURSELF.

Note: I'm pushing two acoustic instruments and 2 vocals through my L1 and it does well in most venues. That might be the limit (out of channels in any case with my dual-sourced guitar taking two), but if your bassist is using a separate amp and not singing, than a trio on one L1 is quite feasible.

chitz · #23 06-16-2010, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoB/335

Why would you make the above suggestion for someone requesting suggestions for a 3 person project and THEN state that you use TWO SoloAmps for a Duo???

If I did that It's because I must have mis-read the OP. I apologize for the confusion.
I have corrected my position on this.

stubewan · #24 06-16-2010, 01:44 PM

We use 2 mics and 2 guitars. So at least 4 inputs are needed. I would eventually like to use at least 1 monitor. I took my guitar to the local GC and tried a few powered speakers, I do like the JBL EON's. It is interesting to me that the 15's are a $100 less than the 10's. Any idea as to why?

The mixer has been abit more harder too close in on. They all sound relatively good. I am looking at a Mackie ProFX 8 and a Yamamha MG82CX both are 8 channel boards.

I am also now looking for used equipment, it is so hard when you can't hear it or give it a test run. But This is the point that I am at now, please chime in as I still am in need of your knowledge, friendship and thoughts.

Regards, Stubewan

alohachris · #25 06-16-2010, 08:51 PM

Aloha Stubewan,

For your configs., I'd be patient and look at 2 things: 1) as many used LIVE PA's as you can - asking questions, & 2) go out and listen to combos in your area and see what they are using - ask questions.

The search can really become a FUN good learning process/search for how elements fit together in a signal chain. Then go home and check out the specs on what you've seen, current prices, etc. & google what the terms mean.

Take your time, Stubewan. You're the winner no matter how long it takes. And then you can build on that knowledge to refine your signal chain as you grow as a live gigger and need different amplification. The knowledge is what will save you money in the long run - lot's of it! Take your time in achieving it. You can't really make any mistakes at this stage, no matter what you get.

But I'd get those free catalogs I mentioned and start reading. Helps with the signal chain concept.

Find the music or audio stores, sound guy (usually a bass player, ha!) in your area that moves used PA's - every town has a guy or store that does that.

Regarding mixers, the two you mentioned are good starts. BUT for $70 more ($299) you can get the really great gem of all the current small mixers, the Allen & Heath ZED 10 FX.

http://www.allen-heath.co.uk/zed/zed-10.asp

What have we been telling you - all of us? YOU NEED GREAT EQ FOR LIVE! Right? The A&H gives it to you - tons better than the other two you mentioned for about the same price. Can't find better LIVE EQ anywhere in under $1000.00! That's a REAL winner. Check it out.

I used a pair of JBL EON15" G-2's for five years at my gigs. Great for all the outdoor lanai hotel gigs I used to do out here. Very powerful! Not bad sounding for acoustic in a variety of settings. Take one to a solo or smaller gig. You need some great EQ like the A&H provides to manage an EON'S mid-range honk. Buy A PAIR Used (OR MACKIE 450'S if can find) - easy to do because it's the most popular speaker in history - millions are used in clubs.

RE: EON 15's being cheaper than 10's? JBL offers many pro and prosumer kinds with similar model #'s. Make sure you're talking the same speaker in the your comparison or maybe GC had a special on them. It can be confusing. And look at the now very popular powered QSC line. People love those, right Bob?

And that would be one monitor per singer, Stubewan. Looks at those (the smaller, personal ones) in the catalogs. Lots will depend on what your primary pairs of speakers are re: monitoring.

What LIVE mics ya lookin' at? Remember, they are strictly voice specific. Let each voice make the final decision on those. Styles you play?

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

stubewan · #26 06-16-2010, 09:24 PM

I didnt see the Zed 10, but will definitely look at it. The JBL EON 315 15" 280watts. Plenty of power to get the job done. As far as mics are concerned I am going to heed the advice that has been given and just let everyone take their time choosing their own mic that will compliment their own voice.

The Music that we cover ranges from Bonnie Raitt to Three Dog Night To Fergie to Amy Winehouse to Dylan. I enjoy the difference in styles. The girl that sings with us is talented, but If I leave the set list to her the songs stay at ballard pulse, which is her most comfortable style. So I have to push her a little to move the energy and tempo, you know how it goes you done this for a while.

BoB/335 · #27 06-17-2010, 07:47 AM

I like the QSC's but I loaned them to a friend to check out and I need to write an in-depth review when I have more time (in a day or two)

The ZED 10FX is going to be a great mixer. Spent some time with A&H tech support yesterday and found out the guitar pre's on 2 channels might prove to be very valuable.

Be sure you have room on your mixer to expand. Possible trio or a friend sitting in. Don't expect to use the "stereo channels" for vocals (matching transformer) or for guitar. I had some difficulties yesterday expecting to use those channels.

Check some reviews on the Eons. Oh wait, you said you heard them and liked them. Nevermind.

gtg

DrDavid · #28 06-17-2010, 07:58 AM

I was very interested in the ZED 10FX for its smaller footprint and lighter weight (I have the 12FX, which is great.....but quite large for schlepping).

However, unless I'm mistaken, it seems the 10FX does not have mute buttons on the individual channels. And that to me is an absolute deal breaker.

So, instead of the 10FX, I bought a Soundcraft EPM-8. It is significantly more schlepp-worthy than the ZED 12FX, has sweepable mids on its EQ (like the ZED), channel mutes, and has two additional XLR inputs.

I'm very happy with the Soundcraft. Not getting rid of the 12FX.....I'll keep that, as well, for non-transportable purposes.

..

BoB/335 · #29 06-17-2010, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDavid

I was very interested in the ZED 10FX for its smaller footprint and lighter weight (I have the 12FX, which is great.....but quite large for schlepping).

However, unless I'm mistaken, it seems the 10FX does not have mute buttons on the individual channels. And that to me is an absolute deal breaker.

So, instead of the 10FX, I bought a Soundcraft EPM-8. It is significantly more schlepp-worthy than the ZED 12FX, has sweepable mids on its EQ (like the ZED), channel mutes, and has two additional XLR inputs.

I'm very happy with the Soundcraft. Not getting rid of the 12FX.....I'll keep that, as well, for non-transportable purposes.

..

Looks like I should have looked into Soundcraft. More xlr's for less money. Anyone ever compare quality of Soundcraft vs A&H???

BuleriaChk · #30 06-17-2010, 09:12 AM

WTF? You're right; I just checked the manual on site. Why would they leave out a solo/mute button on a mixer? Maybe they wanted the focus to be ONLY on live applications, but it still doesn't make much sense to me.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDavid

I was very interested in the ZED 10FX for its smaller footprint and lighter weight (I have the 12FX, which is great.....but quite large for schlepping).

However, unless I'm mistaken, it seems the 10FX does not have mute buttons on the individual channels. And that to me is an absolute deal breaker.
..