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  #1  
Old 07-03-2018, 07:44 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Why pick just one pickup?

I can't seem to make up my mind. Depending on your point of view, there are either too many good pickup options on the market, or no good options. I'll avoid that debate for the time being.

In my quest for "my guitar only louder" I continue to try lot of different pickups. The pickup grave yard on my workbench is starting to get a bit unruly and Mrs. Martingitdave is none too happy. :-)

As you know, I may be a unique case in that I don't use the same setup everywhere I go. So, I am always searching for a great "plug and play" option. I also prefer the natural sound that works better in listening rooms to the punchy piezo tone that tends to work better in noisy bars.

Here are the systems I am employing now after some exhaustive trial and error:

Passive K&K and ToneDexter

Pros
No acoustic degradation
No batteries ot "junk" in the guitar.
10/10 "natural" amplified tone that is customizable to the venue

Cons
Using a pedal with mains power not usually feasible for me
No volume/tone control on the guitar.

Bottom Line
If I were a full time solo artist, I would probably use this. It’s fool proof and you can always plug in straight into whatever you have as a last option backup.

LR Baggs Lyric Mic

Pros
Little to no acoustic degradation
Very lightweight/low impact analog active system
9V battery with long battery life
9/10 "natural" amplified tone
It sounds like a mic because it is a mic
Can be installed in different locations to "tune" the sound. Hint: (I install behind the bridge pins. Better tone but less feedback rejection.)

Cons
Not as pleasing at high volume
Requires proper EQ at the board or with a parametric EQ pedal.
Can be very finicky played into some systems.
Not always a great "open mic" solution.

Bottom Line
If I were a full time "headline" performer with a sound-man, I might use this instead of the K&K/ToneDexter because it is a mic and has more high end definition. That is, as long as someone else is cleaning up the midrange for you. I have this in my best sounding/easiest playing guitar. It's perfect for when you are playing in a small listening room and need only some modest "reinforcement" of the guitar acoustically. In other words, when I play a room and people can hear me singing, playing, and also hear some of the speakers, this sounds really natural. This guitar also has a long glued in saddle, so under saddle systems aren't an option. That's why I have a similar guitar with...

Fishman Aura VT Enhance

Pros
Little acoustic degradation
8/10 "natural" amplified tone.
Capable of punchy "bar" tone.
Totally "plug and play" and versatile for my use.
New system does not require holes and is ultimately removable/replacable.

Cons
9V battery with short battery life
Proprietary and available only in new Martins

Bottom Line
These systems are not everyone's cup of tea for their Martin. But, for what I do, they get the job done. The latest system is their best attempt to compromise on aesthetics, preserving acoustic tone, and providing a useful feature full system. Also, if you play in bands or bars, these under-saddle Aura systems are hard to beat. If I don't know what I'm plugging into, I'm bringing this. Spoiler Alert! (If I could get the Taylor ES2 in my Martin, I would probably use that instead.)

Taylor ES2

Pros
No acoustic degradation
Very lightweight/low impact analog active system
8/10 "natural" amplified tone
It sounds like a passive K&K played through a really good preamp.
Totally "plug and play" and versatile for my use.
Onboard volume bass and treble controls.

Cons
9V battery with short battery life
Proprietary and available only in new Taylors
Not as versatile as the Fishman at high volume/high feedback applications.
No punchy "bar" tone.

Bottom Line
For what I do, the Taylor ES2 system is the best fit. But, the Taylor guitar isn't always the best fit for my music. I'm a big fan of Taylor guitars, but I really love the warmth and power from a Martin dreadnought. That said, some of my best gigs were played with a less expensive Taylor 210e Deluxe with ES2. If I could get one of those (or a 110e) with their 1-3/4" nut, I would use one of those as my gig guitar and be done with it. If you use this system in loud bars and bands, you’ll probably need a DI with notch filter or auto feedback rejection.

Future
If a new "plug and play" system comes on the market that doesn't require an under-saddle transducer, I can envision myself swapping out the Lyric and selling the guitar with the Fishman system, just to simplify things. I prefer to own fewer guitars.

Well folks, that's all I've got for now.
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Last edited by martingitdave; 07-03-2018 at 08:36 AM.
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  #2  
Old 07-03-2018, 08:20 AM
gfirob gfirob is offline
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Sounds like you might have an embarrassment of riches...

One thing you don't mention is that with the Tonedexter you have one box that will work with (almost) any pickup situation. I have K&K's in all my guitars and only one Tondexter so I can switch guitars during a set and all I have to do is turn the selection knob for a different wave map, but that would be the case no matter what pickups you had in the guitars.

In a performance situation in which pedals are commonly used, power is almost always available, but in some open mike situations (or ad hoc spaces) you just never know.

I have not tried the manufacturer specific pickups you describe, though I have been pretty impressed with the Trance Amulet. For overall ease of installation and performance together with the Tonedexter, I think the K&K combination is hard to beat, especially with the freedom to switch off guitars during the set. I think this really helps to provide variety in the performance.
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2003 Martin OM-42, K&K's
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1951 Rickenbacker Panda lap steel
2014 Gibson Roy Smeck Stage Deluxe Ltd, Custom Shop, K&K's
1957 Kay K-27 X-braced jumbo, K&K's
1967 Gretsch 6120 Chet Atkins Nashville
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  #3  
Old 07-03-2018, 08:36 AM
MartyGraw MartyGraw is offline
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In your first scenario, why don't you put a K and K volume control in your guitar and then control your tone with your Tonedexter? I use that but with a Redeye into my powered speakers and it sounds excellent.
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Old 07-03-2018, 08:40 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Great reply Gfirob! I do most of my playing in open mic, showcases, festivals and charity concerts. So, the ToneDexter is sort of difficult for me to rely on. As far as the embarrassment of riches, that's a great way to describe it. I have 4 guitars with 4 systems. The ES2 is in the 12 string, which I don't perform with that often. The K&K is in my bluegrass guitar. So, it's really two options to choose from. It's fun to experiment when I have at least one system working at any given time. :-) I have tried the Trance Amulet on multiple occasions. The first install I did sounded just perfect. They are placement sensitive and I just lucked out and got it right the first time. But, the preamp failed and the system was sent in for replacement. When I got the replacement, I was never able to reproduce the results of the first install. After 4 tires, I got frustrated and sold it off. Others swear by this system.
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Last edited by martingitdave; 07-03-2018 at 08:54 AM.
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  #5  
Old 07-03-2018, 08:42 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyGraw View Post
In your first scenario, why don't you put a K and K volume control in your guitar and then control your tone with your Tonedexter? I use that but with a Redeye into my powered speakers and it sounds excellent.
Marty, good question. I tried that. When the volume is rolled off, I feel like I loose to much high end. So, I took that out of the circuit and wired the K&K to the endpin directly. I Travis pick with bare fingers, so I need the high end to avoid the muddy sound.
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:29 AM
Vancebo Vancebo is offline
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Many here would ask, “why do you need to make up your mind”. You essentially described perfectly your uses for each. One size doesn’t fit all. Me, I am essential lazy. At least I would be if I was so gosh darn busy all of the time. I streamlined my gear so when I do get to play there is less complication. It works for me.
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  #7  
Old 07-03-2018, 09:53 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by Vancebo View Post
Many here would ask, “why do you need to make up your mind”. You essentially described perfectly your uses for each. One size doesn’t fit all. Me, I am essential lazy. At least I would be if I was so gosh darn busy all of the time. I streamlined my gear so when I do get to play there is less complication. It works for me.

Yes, simple is better. There is one pickup system left on my list to try. Dazzo. If I can get Teddy, or an experienced installer, to do that one for me, I’ll put one in with the SunnAudio preamp. I don’t want to experiment with epoxy installs.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:17 AM
Monsum Monsum is offline
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What about adding to your equipment something like Fishman Stage EQ/DI which can run off a battery or Phantom power and use it with the K&K in situations where you might not have an access to mains power.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:25 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by Monsum View Post
What about adding to your equipment something like Fishman Stage EQ/DI which can run off a battery or Phantom power and use it with the K&K in situations where you might not have an access to mains power.
I've done that and it works well. I have had both the K&K pure preamp and the Fishman Stage. I don't have any good excuses other than I don't really like the belt clip style preamps. But, it's a good solution for those who do.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:29 AM
lkingston lkingston is offline
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Default Why pick just one pickup?

I’ve just discovered my own personal “holy grail” pickup: the Shertler AG-6 with the added S-Mic. Live I add just the tiniest amount of mic, about an eighth of a turn of the dial. At that level there is still plenty of “mic air” and if I snap my fingers near the soundhole or tap the body of the guitar, it is at a nice level. At that mic level I need no notch filters or special EQ.

If I am recording with this pickup, I turn the mic up all the way and listen with headphones and it sounds like a nicely miked guitar. The magnetic pickup is still there but I don’t notice it. I am very particular about my recorded sound and if it didn’t sound as good as a condenser mic on a stand, I wouldn’t use it.

If I’m playing a small intimate gig, I turn the mic up a little past my usual eighth of a turn and use the extensive EQing capabilities of my Elite Acoustics D6-8 to get an intimate “my guitar only louder” sound that is just exquisite.

I’m only about a week into use of this pickup, but I’m already photographing and boxing my other pickups to sell. I’m also selling my Boss AD-10 because with the S-Mic, I no longer need the body resonance effect. Everyone’s taste’s in pickups are different, but for me this is it and I’ve stopped looking.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:33 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by lkingston View Post
I’ve just discovered my own personal “holy grail” pickup: the Shertler AG-6 with the added S-Mic. Live I add just the tiniest amount of mic, about an eighth of a turn of the dial. At that level there is still plenty of “mic air” and if I snap my fingers near the soundhole or tap the body of the guitar, it is at a nice level. At that mic level I need no notch filters or special EQ.

I’m only about a week into use of this pickup, but I’m already photographing and boxing my other pickups to sell. I’m also selling my Boss AD-10 because with the S-Mic, I no longer need the body resonance effect. Everyone’s taste’s in pickups are different, but for me this is it and I’ve stopped looking.
Wow! Knowing how particular you are about pickups, I'm surprised how quickly you're getting on with the new Shertler. They certainly make fine gear.
Congrats!
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:07 AM
gfirob gfirob is offline
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Interesting thread, Martingitdave. Sounds like we play similar venues and I would guess about half the time I can use my own system and about half the time I have to take what is there. But that is an argument for making it as simple as possible. I wish there was an easy battery solution for the Tonedexter (maybe there is).

But to be honest, the attempt to get the best and truest acoustic sound out of an amplification system tends to be a moving target for me. I can get it dialed in so that it sounds really good on headphones, but different through my amp (more eq) and then entirely different depending on the room , and if I go into an open mike either with the naked K&K or a microphone, it is different again.

Finally, under the stress of performing, the fine distinctions that I hear in the comfort of my own home and headsets seem a distant dream, and I just don’t worry about it. I just do the best I can.

All that being said, the K&K’s and Tonedexter combination sounds the best overall with the lowest pain in the butt quotient.
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2003 Martin OM-42, K&K's
1932 National Style O, K&K's
1930 National Style 1 tricone Square-neck
1951 Rickenbacker Panda lap steel
2014 Gibson Roy Smeck Stage Deluxe Ltd, Custom Shop, K&K's
1957 Kay K-27 X-braced jumbo, K&K's
1967 Gretsch 6120 Chet Atkins Nashville
2024 Mahogany Weissenborn, Jack Stepick

Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina
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  #13  
Old 07-03-2018, 11:15 AM
lkingston lkingston is offline
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Default Why pick just one pickup?

Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Wow! Knowing how particular you are about pickups, I'm surprised how quickly you're getting on with the new Shertler. They certainly make fine gear.

Congrats!

Keep in mind that guitar sound is somewhat subjective, and that in addition to acoustic guitars I also play and love floating pickup solid body (or just top) archtops. Two of my favorite guitarists are Tuck Andress (Tuck and Patti) and Martin Taylor, both of which play electric archtops. On Martin Taylor recordings he typically uses a mic on his guitar in addition to floating magnetic pickup. I LOVE that sound and have no problem whatsoever with a little jazzbox flavor being part of my acoustic guitar sound. On the other hand, I absolutely despise the piezo quack.

Another pickup that I would be interested in checking out if I wasn’t so happy with the Shertler would be the Vanden Mimesis Kudo Blend:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews...is-kudos-blend

The Mimesis lets you choose between a high quality built in mic and an external one. DPA seems to be what they are encouraging. So the setup could be the Mimesis pickup with a wire running to a DPA mic on an arm outside your guitar. Live you would get a blend of the DPA and the soundhole magnetic. With the internal mic I imagine the sound is still stellar.

Last edited by lkingston; 07-03-2018 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:06 PM
lkingston lkingston is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfirob View Post

Finally, under the stress of performing, the fine distinctions that I hear in the comfort of my own home and headsets seem a distant dream, and I just don’t worry about it. I just do the best I can.

Amen! I am not necessarily looking for perfection. I just want something that sounds as good as possible with a minimal amount of extra setup and tear down time!



Quote:
All that being said, the K&K’s and Tonedexter combination sounds the best overall with the lowest pain in the butt quotient.

Even that is too much for me. I have done plenty of open mics and found myself waiting in the wings with my guitar on a strap and my hands full with a preamp, an extra guitar cable, and an extension cord. I just want to get as good a sound as I can with nothing but the guitar. Plus, I need my hands free to hold my Audix OM5 mic that I like so much better than the SM58s that are normally there.
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Old 07-03-2018, 01:19 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by lkingston View Post
Even that is too much for me. I have done plenty of open mics and found myself waiting in the wings with my guitar on a strap and my hands full with a preamp, an extra guitar cable, and an extension cord. I just want to get as good a sound as I can with nothing but the guitar. Plus, I need my hands free to hold my Audix OM5 mic that I like so much better than the SM58s that are normally there.

This is another point we agree on. I don’t like the distraction of setting stuff up when doing an open mic. I’m more concerned with the singing and the audience. I find pedals to be a distraction unless I have time to setup in advance and sound check. Other guys might be more coordinated and less distracted than I am.
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