Evan B's thin body X10

[Earl49]

Evan, I'm sorry that the new guitar does not seem to be working out for you. My thought is to ponder it all for a few more months before doing anything rash. The Ramirez may be the ultimate in acoustic tone for you, but will be very vulnerable in your desert climate, requiring all the humidity and temperature care that CF lets you avoid. Classical guitars have centuries of trial and error behind them, and really good ones are VERY carefully optimized for volume and projection. But they do not shine at player ergonomics as we now define it in the Emerald carbon fiber world. Alistair takes player comfort to a whole new level that wooden boxes simply cannot match.

I will join the chorus that maybe you are asking one guitar to do too many conflicting things. A Porsche 911 does speed and handling really well, but it cannot be a pickup truck, or a Jeep, or a minivan. I'm kinda reminded of the old joke about hiring contractors: you can get the job done fast, cheap or right. Pick any two.

Your councils are smart and appreciated.

It's clear that I want the sun, the moon, and the stars. It's equally clear that you can't always get what you want.

I know that a thin body is not likely to make a powerful acoustic statement. The 7 and 10 both have good acoustic voices for such thin instruments and when plugged in they are powerful.

I also know that a wooden instrument in my climate is not for me--I'm not interested in spending the time and money to maintain humidity and temperature ranges. And I know from past experience that if not treated tenderly a good wooden instrument falls apart.

As I noted earlier, Alistair is doing well and creating marvelous musical instruments. I remain in his debt for offering me a number of custom nylon string guitars, everyone of which is a winner.

Part of my problem may be that there is no end to a learning curve. I thought an amped up thin body would be satisfactory, but then learned that I am somewhat hard-wired into a desired acoustic tone and projection. When I turned to thin bodied electrics to get projection, I think I should have kept with acoustic builds while focusing more on sound board variations.

Anyway I appreciate your candor and advice. I am not making any fast moves and will continue to play what I have while thinking about what I want.

The bottom line is that it's all good. Alistair has given me (and a lot of other players) the opportunity to freely explore variations of guitar build and its been a great run. I may be confounded, but can hardly cry "poor me" while sitting here with a custom acoustic/electric and two electric/acoustics that play and sound fantastic while looking gorgeous.

[esimms86]

I don't know if an X20 nylon is something that you would consider but I wonder if an X20 with a side sound port would provide you with the projection that you seek.

In fact, I wonder if anyone has ever had a conversation with Alistair about the possibility of building a CF guitar with a side sound port. I expect that it would require the production of a new mold to arrive at such an instrument and I am fully aware that it would take quite a bit of work for Alistair and company to arrive at any new CF mold. Further, it's obvious that an X30 has the optimal amount of real estate to incorporate a side sound port. Still, the X20 is Emerald's biggest seller so perhaps this is something that Emerald would consider using the X20 as a platform for.

I can tell you from personal experience that side sound ports are the real deal. There are many builders of wood guitars who offer them as an option. A port in the rear position would add quite a bit of sound projection for the player. Food for thought.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by esimms86

I don't know if an X20 nylon is something that you would consider but I wonder if an X20 with a side sound port would provide you with the projection that you seek.

In fact, I wonder if anyone has ever had a conversation with Alistair about the possibility of building a CF guitar with a side sound port. I expect that it would require the production of a new mold to arrive at such an instrument and I am fully aware that it would take quite a bit of work for Alistair and company to arrive at any new CF mold. Further, it's obvious that an X30 has the optimal amount of real estate to incorporate a side sound port. Still, the X20 is Emerald's biggest seller so perhaps this is something that Emerald would consider using the X20 as a platform for.

I can tell you from personal experience that side sound ports are the real deal. There are many builders of wood guitars who offer them as an option. A port in the rear position would add quite a bit of sound projection for the player. Food for thought.

I suspect that Emerald would consider the offset soundhole as providing more than adequate projection for the player - after all, that's the primary reason for its design, as I understand it.

I certainly find it more than adequate on my X20s, and can't really imagine needing more. YMMV, of course.

[esimms86]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

I suspect that Emerald would consider the offset soundhole as providing more than adequate projection for the player - after all, that's the primary reason for its design, as I understand it.

I certainly find it more than adequate on my X20s, and can't really imagine needing more. YMMV, of course.

While I as yet don't have any experience with any Emerald models other the Kestrel, I have no reason to dispute what you have to say regarding steel string Emeralds. I'm just trying to think outside the box a little in the case of (quieter?) nylon strings, such as the instruments that @EvanB owns and prefers.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by esimms86

While I as yet don't have any experience with any Emerald models other the Kestrel, I have no reason to dispute what you have to say regarding steel string Emeralds. I'm just trying to think outside the box a little in the case of (quieter?) nylon strings, such as the instruments that @EvanB owns and prefers.

Good point about the distinction between steel and nylon. Another approach might be the one taken on a custom X20 Nylon in the most recent shipping video, which was made with fan frets.

I'd love to hear what this sounds like.

See it here, at 4:30:

[esimms86]

Yes, that’s an awesome looking guitar. Anyway, I don’t want to hijack what is ostensibly EvanB’s thread (though the OP, I might add, is Chloe!).

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by esimms86

Yes, that’s an awesome looking guitar. Anyway, I don’t want to hijack what is ostensibly EvanB’s thread (though the OP, I might add, is Chloe!).

Hijacking threads is a way of life around here. Carry on

Speaking of which, where the heck is Kramster these days?

I'm all in for high jacked threads, its almost an art form, and sure as heck human. Certainly done my share of it.

Not sure where Kramster is. He may be my nephew, but he clearly has his own life and doesn't often get with me for family chats (I still don't know how we're related since none of my close relatives will admit any such relationship). The only thing I know is that he appears to have been raised on a goat farm. That's sort of relational in that I was raised on a horse ranch. But I digress.

[casualmusic]

Originally Posted by EvanB

Sorry its taken me so long to review the X10 nylon string electric. I'm faced with confoundment, and not sure what to to do.....



.....I've used my brother-in-law's Ramirez as a base standard for classic guitar sound.

I've tried three Blackbird nylon instruments and found that the Rider comes close, but is not comfortable for me.

The Rainsong has great tonal qualities, but LACKS THE PROJECTION of a good wooden instrument.

The Emerald acoustics also have marvelous tonal qualities, but LACK THE PROJECTIVE PUSH found in good classical guitars.

.

You won't be happy until you go back to Alistair's restaurant.


May I suggest a hands on experiment to keep your objectives of 'thin' and 'comfortable' while embracing the general agreement amongst acoustic guitar buyers and makers (including Alistair) that 'big projection' comes from a big sound box.


Linda Manzer says to achieve a combination of comfort and big sound by tapering the thickness of the soundbox (aka Manzer wedge).

Make the upper side thinner so that it's easy to for the picking/strumming arm to reach around.

Make the bottom side wide where it sits on your thigh thick to increase the net volume of the soundbox.


Since you like the projection of the Ramirez I suggest you start by measuring its soundbox volume and use the result as the target. Also measure the X10 electric to see the difference.


À. Measure the Ramirez sound box (no DO NOT do the liquid volume thing haha)

Start with a large sheet of paper with a 1" or 1/4" grid. This could use flip chart paper that has a 1" grid or tape together two sheets of 11 x 17" with 1/4" grid or draw gridlines on a sheet of newspaper.

Trace the outline of the Ramirez. count and add up the full squares and partial to get the surface area. Multiply by the average thickness to obtain the volume in cubic inches. As an option you could convert cubic inches to gallons or litres/quarts. For a bit more accuracy you select a line that goes across the waist and do the measurement as two parts: upper bout and lower bout. Don't get fussed about exact accuracy.

Examples from my measurements:
- CA Cargo - 13 x 18" box - 419 ci, 6.9 litres, 1.8 gal US

- Classical - 15 x 19" box - 858 ci, 14.1 litres, 3.7 gal US

- Concert Pro - 15.3 x 19" box - 875 ci, 14.3 litres, 3.8 gal US

- Rainsong H-DR - 16 x 20" box - 1107 ci, 18.1 litre, 4.8 gal US.


*** Rough guess is that the thin X10 will be 8-10 litres compared to approx 14 liters for the Ramirez



B. Measure the X10 to see the difference between the X10 and the Ramirez. Remember to subtract the X10 cutaway and bevels.


C. Mock up your new target guitar body shape-size to test for comfort and get sufficient box volume :

- Start with the X10 electric.

- Attach additional wedge volume to the back so that the top side stays the same width and the wideest part is at the thigh. Try various wedge shapes and calculate the resulting volume. Test for comfort.

- Experiment with a dual taper: topside to bottom side and heel to end pin. (the heel to end pin taper is traditional to minimize the fret hand reach.

- It's possible that the wedgie prototype may be comfortable without the usual Emerald body sculpture bevel.

- The additional material can be made from layers of cardboard box or carved from styrofoam etc.


C. Iterate the prototype to see how big the body area can be and still be comfortable. Try to obtain 800+ ci or acceptable compromise.

- Start with the augmented X10 prototype from Step B.

- Enlarge to the X20 dimensions and then the X30 dimensions by adding to the sides some layers cut from cardboard.

- For the X30 version try to add to add the side layers to match the 12 fret on 21" body configuration.

- Test for comfort. I'm guessing that the X30 size might feel similar a thin version of the Kestrel.

- Try to obtain the Ramirez ball park of 800+ ci. Decide on acceptable trade-offs.


D. Order the guitar from Emerald.

- Sweet talk Alistair as usual.

- Consider sending guidance in the form of rough drawings, pictures, critical dimensions, etc. Maybe use strips cut from a cardboard box to make a collapsible and mail friendly copy of your favourite version.

- Changes the directive from 'do it with best judgement' to 'do it with this this approach'.


Scary huh?


.

[RP]

Hey casual music, you forgot the part about sending Alistair a blank check. I've got to assume that the procedure you outlined is tongue-in-cheek. While I've never questioned the price of Emerald guitars, after watching Alistair's Quarantine Project, I find it hard to even put a price on an Emerald, especially a one-off...

[insolent cur]

Extraordinary and wonderful discussion about a beautiful guitar, goats and horses not withstanding. :-)

Casual;

I'm sort of fascinated by your suggested approach.

I've considered the Manzer Wedge but wondered if that would compensate for what I consider the big problem--sound board stiffness. Journey offers the wedge in its CF classical guitar but I need to hear more from people who have played it.

I like the suggested volume measurements. The 7 & 10 electrics and my 10 and 20 acoustics have given me a pretty good range of the volume I can handle. The Manzer Wedge may displace volume in a way that enhances projection, but then I'm back to wondering if the Manzer can compensate for soundboard stiffness.

I would be interested in Alistair's take on the Manzer.

[Simon@Emerald]

Originally Posted by EvanB

Casual;
I would be interested in Alistair's take on the Manzer.

Its been a while since i was on this thread and was going to comment "how about a Manzer wedge.." but i see i was beat to the chase 😂

I do believe someone enquired about that recently, i recall chloe asking myself and alistair about it but im not sure if the order was placed (i dont tend to deal with the sales side of things). Ill have a check in the morning.

Im sure Alistair would enjoy the challenge, but hes certainly not short of challenges at the minute. 😂

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by Simon@Emerald

Its been a while since i was on this thread and was going to comment "how about a Manzer wedge.." but i see i was beat to the chase 😂

I do believe someone enquired about that recently, i recall chloe asking myself and alistair about it but im not sure if the order was placed (i dont tend to deal with the sales side of things). Ill have a check in the morning.

I’m not sure what makes a wedge a ‘Manzer wedge’ - but I was watching the ‘in stock’ video this morning, and Mr. Hay pointed out that the Synergy Harp Guitar actually does have a wedge as a standard feature. So, it’s been done before

Check this out at around the 12:30 mark: