Arguments against the "Poor Man's Neck Reset"

[pcoleff]

My apologies for the delay in replying to this thread. I brought the guitar into a local guitar shop for them to take a look at it. Though I was 90% sure, based on what I saw, that it needed a neck reset, I am not a professional so I wanted someone else to take a look at it before I did anything to the guitar. I also wanted to wait until I hear back before chiming back on.

Unfortunately, I was correct and it does need a neck reset. The guitar shop did suggest that they could shave the saddle, which I realize is something that can be "undone" by replacing the saddle. That said, the cost was about $265 (admittedly, cheaper than a neck reset by a good amount). So I passed and I'm going to pick it back up today.

I actually do like the streaming method suggested by the video someone linked, so I'm considering that. For steam: I have an small handheld clothes steamer. Do you all think something like that would work?

I am still leaning towards Frank Ford's method because of the simplicity of it. Is there an advantage to using a deck screw (which I have) or a bolt and nut? I would think the latter would be more sturdy and hold better against the tension of the strings?

Someone who replied mentioned being unsure if I had any sentimental attachment to this guitar. I do not. I bought this guitar not that long ago because I wanted a guitar to keep at my GF's house so I didn't have to lug any of my other ones back and forth. That said, also because I don't have a sentimental attachment to it, I don't feel any pause about trying something drastic like Frank's method that may get it playable. Plus, as I mentioned before, I like the idea of breathing new life (Frankenstein as it may be) into this old guitar.

[Martin_F]

Originally Posted by pcoleff

My apologies for the delay in replying to this thread. I brought the guitar into a local guitar shop for them to take a look at it. Though I was 90% sure, based on what I saw, that it needed a neck reset, I am not a professional so I wanted someone else to take a look at it before I did anything to the guitar. I also wanted to wait until I hear back before chiming back on.

Unfortunately, I was correct and it does need a neck reset. The guitar shop did suggest that they could shave the saddle, which I realize is something that can be "undone" by replacing the saddle. That said, the cost was about $265 (admittedly, cheaper than a neck reset by a good amount). So I passed and I'm going to pick it back up today.

I actually do like the streaming method suggested by the video someone linked, so I'm considering that. For steam: I have an small handheld clothes steamer. Do you all think something like that would work?

I am still leaning towards Frank Ford's method because of the simplicity of it. Is there an advantage to using a deck screw (which I have) or a bolt and nut? I would think the latter would be more sturdy and hold better against the tension of the strings?

Someone who replied mentioned being unsure if I had any sentimental attachment to this guitar. I do not. I bought this guitar not that long ago because I wanted a guitar to keep at my GF's house so I didn't have to lug any of my other ones back and forth. That said, also because I don't have a sentimental attachment to it, I don't feel any pause about trying something drastic like Frank's method that may get it playable. Plus, as I mentioned before, I like the idea of breathing new life (Frankenstein as it may be) into this old guitar.

I'm not sure how powerful your hand steamer would be. Experiment a little to see how much of a blast you can get out of it. It seems to me that maybe you can find a traditional stovetop kettle and put a tube coming off the spout to direct the steam into the guitar. This would likely be powerful enough if you got it boiling very rapidly. From the sounds of the video, you need enough power to get the area hot from around 30 seconds worth of steam. Of course, you wouldn't want too much steam or you might get other issues. Clamping the guitar down for a few weeks would make sure that the recently steamed wood would retain most of its new shape (likely to get some springback).

You will know if you didn't get enough steam because the whole thing will likely spring back to where it was. Steam should make the whole thing more pliable so that it isn't being overly forced into taking its new shape.

I have bent wood with steam for woodworking previously, but never with a guitar like this.

Martin

[JonWint]

Originally Posted by pcoleff

The guitar shop did suggest that they could shave the saddle, which I realize is something that can be "undone" by replacing the saddle. That said, the cost was about $265 (admittedly, cheaper than a neck reset by a good amount). So I passed and I'm going to pick it back up today.

I actually do like the streaming method suggested by the video someone linked, so I'm considering that. For steam: I have an small handheld clothes steamer. Do you all think something like that would work?

$265 to shave the saddle? What's their labor rate $300 per hour. Measure, remove, shave, replace.

Steam method? Thirty seconds of steam, 3 weeks of clamping. How much over-clamping to accommodate spring back? Give it a try; what could go wrong besides top and sides failure? I thought I had crazy ideas......

[Martin_F]

Originally Posted by JonWint

$265 to shave the saddle? What's their labor rate $300 per hour. Measure, remove, shave, replace.

Steam method? Thirty seconds of steam, 3 weeks of clamping. How much over-clamping to accommodate spring back? Give it a try; what could go wrong besides top and sides failure? I thought I had crazy ideas......

Yet done by a luthier with years of experience? Hahaha.. I can't see why it wouldn't work. He notes that you fill most of the guitar with cloth so that steam can only get in one small area. I think its a better idea than cutting the neck. I agree to be careful. Too much steam and the glue might give up around the neck area. Still a good idea!

Martin

[redir]

Originally Posted by JonWint

$265 to shave the saddle? What's their labor rate $300 per hour. Measure, remove, shave, replace.

Steam method? Thirty seconds of steam, 3 weeks of clamping. How much over-clamping to accommodate spring back? Give it a try; what could go wrong besides top and sides failure? I thought I had crazy ideas......

My guess is that he means shave the bridge not the saddle but even that... $265 bones? That would be a $75 dollar job in my shop. $265 is close to base line neck reset.

OP you may not realize it but you got advice from one of the best repairmen in the business, I suggest you heed Franks advice if you want to DIY this and it has no sentimental value. IMO a bolt would be better then a deck screw but that would probably work fine as long as you drill a pilot hole.

[jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Playguitar

This video shows how to straighten the neck with heat and pressure. In the comments he says you can add or remove relief depending on how the pressure is applied he also mentions steam helps (in the comments).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVwFGQO8rVw

I’ve had the necks of two of my guitars (both 12 strings) straightened with a heat press. It is apparently the standard approach on classical. It works well andit is cheaper than a reset.

Jack

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by redir

My guess is that he means shave the bridge not the saddle but even that... $265 bones? That would be a $75 dollar job in my shop. $265 is close to base line neck reset.

Yep, at that price just reset the neck for a few bucks more and get it done right

Steve

[pcoleff]

Hi all!
For the repair quote, yes, I meant that he was going to shave the saddle, and replace and reslot the bridge. I get that, even at that, it's starting to get near to what just a neck reset, the real issue, would cost to repair.

In the end, I used the method recommended by Frank Ford, the famous "Five Minute Neck Reset". It's actually finding the article online about his method in Guitar Player that brought me to consider handling any of this myself, so it's fun to get the vote from the man himself.

I gotta admit, there was a moment there when I had my flush cut saw partway through the heel where I was like "what am I doing taking a saw to this guitar? Is this crazy?" But I powered through, cut as far as I felt comfortable with without hitting the truss rod and put in a long deck screw (which I opted for over the nut and bolt because I happened to have a bunch of these laying around and there seemed to be not an overwhelming vote for one or the other).

I'd seen a video online where someone cut a big square notch out of the heel for the screw, but that seemed excessive, so I just cut a nick out to get the drill started, drilled a pilot hole, added a small countersink, and that seemed to work fine. I also brought the nut down a bit because it was kinda high and the strings were already off anyways and why not. Unfortunately, that brought up an issue where the low E slot was worn and I'm having to fill that now.

But (other than the low E) all the strings are on now and tuned up and it plays great! I gotta admin, there were a few minutes there as I was tightening the strings where I wondered if I was gonna get hit in the face by a snapped off neck, but all seemed to hold just fine!

The project still isn't 100% done, as I need to get a stain marker to clean up a couple scuffs from the saw and make the cut look a little nicer. But that's about it.

Now having done it, I would agree 100% with the general consensus. I would NEVER do this on a guitar with any real worth. I'd shell out the $$ and get a neck reset done properly. That said, for this guitar, which I bought for $80, I feel like it was the right decision. And if I had some old department store parlor sitting around, I would not hesitate to do this again on that either.

[redir]

Don't be shy, post some pics

When you think about it the forces enacted on the neck and body joint do to string pull they are strongest right in line of the strings so that's the upper section of the heal right under the fretboard. You can just about get away with stringing up a guitar with no joint at all. So just one screw located closer to the heel cap just to hold it with enough force that it doesn't close like a door hinge.

[pcoleff]

I guess that's true about the string tension. I was just nervous. And I definitely will post pictures once I get it prettied up a bit Right now, I put some wood fill in the screw hole. I'm going to sand the fill and stain it tonight. It will not look perfect, not even remotely, but it should sustain a passing glance without looking too weird.

[John Arnold]

I’ve had the necks of two of my guitars (both 12 strings) straightened with a heat press. It is apparently the standard approach on classical. It works well andit is cheaper than a reset.

It has no bearing on this problem, which is a bad angle between the neck and body. This results from body distortion, and very often the neck itself is straight from the nut to the body. If you heat press such a neck, it will lower the action, but it is now back bowed, which is never a good thing.
This distortion of the body is mainly the top itself, which takes on an S curve; bellying outward below the bridge and sinking in above the bridge. This curve does two things. The bridge raises up, because the X brace is stiffer above the bridge, which means that the top sinking is less than the bellying. The S curve also shortens the top, which causes the neck block to tilt ever so slightly. The fact that the sides twist a little on either side of the neck is of little consequence, since ths sides provide very little stiffness to stop the progression. All you have to do to prove this is remove the back or top of a guitar and see how easily you can change the neck angle. The sides assembly is simply not very rigid when the sides intersect the neck at nearly right angles. The body gets its stiffness from the geometry, which can be compared to an I-beam. The sides are the shear web that keeps the upper and lower plates in position to act as tension and compression members.
The suggestion to steam the body to straighten it is valid, but you would have to steam the top in the bridge area, which is where the problem originates. Rebracing the top is another valid approach. The irony is that rebracing a top means disassembling the body by removing the back or top. But if you do that, it affords the opportunity to slip the neck block.