Are National Resos ‘out of fashion’?

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by MrDB

What a fabulous story Rock, thanks for taking the time to post that.

I'm not a slow reso player, I'm not a fast reso player,

I'm just kind of a half-fast reso player

You're welcome, I love to tell people about Don Young! Now go practice half-fast

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

You're welcome, I love to tell people about Don Young! Now go practice half-fast

Years ago I was told that my metal body Dobro was a 1976 made when Doug Young was Factory Supervisor/Foreman, and that is why my guitar is more 'special' than the ones that were made later in a sort of decline....

It was the 2nd Dobro I bought and I traded my previous 1929 wood body to get it, plus a bag of cash..around late 80s. And I played it everywhere! And it was in a huge onstage crash where my Sax player pulled over the PA Speakers and all the guitars on my guitar stands...big dent in the lower bout!

It is ironic that the when Doug Young started National Reso and the word was out, that my Dobro was then near worthless...still not worth today what I paid in the 80s! Nationals got the beefier necks and nuts and everything, but mine still holds its ground, some new strings would maybe help...err..haven't touched it in a while....brass body is fairly heavy.

Oh yeah, I got a reso pickup put in years ago because I was sick of mics and feedback, but it sounded great at home and then I got up at a blues night, plugged direct to the PA and sounded like...cardboard tearing...it was awful! (And somebody came up after and said it sounded great. There you go, but I they wanted to buy it and I was about to give it to them, let me tell you!)




BluesKing777.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Years ago I was told that my metal body Dobro was a 1976 made when Doug Young was Factory Supervisor/Foreman, and that is why my guitar is more 'special' than the ones that were made later in a sort of decline....

It was the 2nd Dobro I bought and I traded my previous 1929 wood body to get it, plus a bag of cash..around late 80s. And I played it everywhere! And it was in a huge onstage crash where my Sax player pulled over the PA Speakers and all the guitars on my guitar stands...big dent in the lower bout!

It is ironic that the when Doug Young started National Reso and the word was out, that my Dobro was then near worthless...still not worth today what I paid in the 80s! Nationals got the beefier necks and nuts and everything, but mine still holds its ground, some new strings would maybe help...err..haven't touched it in a while....brass body is fairly heavy.

Oh yeah, I got a reso pickup put in years ago because I was sick of mics and feedback, but it sounded great at home and then I got up at a blues night, plugged direct to the PA and sounded like...cardboard tearing...it was awful! (And somebody came up after and said it sounded great. There you go, but I they wanted to buy it and I was about to give it to them, let me tell you!)




BluesKing777.

Hey Bluesking777 I've played a few Dobros exactly like yours, and one of them sounded really good, it's still owned by a close friend. You should consider yourself lucky having a good sounding Dobro from the modern era as most of the ones I've played just don't do it for me. And it's not like I didn't give them a go, I personally owned two Dobro branded instruments from that same era, both wood bodied, one biscuit roundneck Hula Blues, and one beautiful looking spider F60 squareneck. Both of them were absolutely dead sounding. I thought I would fix up the Hula Blues with a new cone, but I came to my senses, and had Don build me my custom M2, and I bought the F60 online when my National got stolen, I was in the middle of a recording project that needed a spider cone sound, but it just didn't do the trick. I couldn't sell either one of them fast enough. I'm sure neither one of mine was touched by Don!

[BluesKing777]

I had a vintage (28-29?) Dobro wooden body and the bow in the neck could be used for archery...sounded classic and the smell was like something deep in the jungle....

But obviously, Doug Young walked past as they made my metal Dobro so the old one went and the new one came to live here. (he may have even made some of it, no idea!).

The neck size and spacing of the new Nationals is way nicer than the slimmer neck 1976 Dobro.

I also have 'Buzz' I don't play, needs repair - 1935 National Trojan:




National M14:




National Tricone steel:




If I could only keep one, I think it would be the M14 - 5 1/2 lbs....)




BluesKing777.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

If I could only keep one, I think it would be the M14 - 5 1/2 lbs....)

BluesKing777.

Yeah they do get heavy!!! My Polychrome Tricone, just like yours but different color, weighs a ton! It is really versatile though!

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

Yeah they do get heavy!!! My Polychrome Tricone, just like yours but different color, weighs a ton! It is really versatile though!

Yep, no question at all about the tone of Nationals, new and old, but I must admit considering leaving it at a gig when tired!

I like playing slide on wood bodies - here is my poor old 1952 Gibson LG1 I was talking about here the other day:


I was talking about this guitar on another channel..

In a similar vein to your age before beauty post, I bought my very first eBay online guitar purchase around 10 or so years ago and my 1952 Gibson LG1 turned up in a bag...with the neck sticking out. No idea how it made it here!

It has more splits than Swan Lake and is fairly err...errgly.

And I played it. And it is horrible.....frets high and low and buzzing and neck needing a reset, splits and cracks and water marks on the back....and someone had used gold speckle texta to overwrite the Gibson Logo!

Oh yeah, that is a good buy, eh?

Then a few weeks later, I thought to try slide on it....I put it in Open G and....Voila!!!! Wow! Can't beat old wood!

I had to get another bridge after it split in half one day - ebony replacement....


Here is a short slide demo I recorded this afternoon (click "Listen in browser" to save going to Soundcloud...):








BluesKing777.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Yep, no question at all about the tone of Nationals, new and old, but I must admit considering leaving it at a gig when tired!

I like playing slide on wood bodies - here is my poor old 1952 Gibson LG1 I was talking about here the other day:


I was talking about this guitar on another channel..

In a similar vein to your age before beauty post, I bought my very first eBay online guitar purchase around 10 or so years ago and my 1952 Gibson LG1 turned up in a bag...with the neck sticking out. No idea how it made it here!

It has more splits than Swan Lake and is fairly err...errgly.

And I played it. And it is horrible.....frets high and low and buzzing and neck needing a reset, splits and cracks and water marks on the back....and someone had used gold speckle texta to overwrite the Gibson Logo!

Oh yeah, that is a good buy, eh?

Then a few weeks later, I thought to try slide on it....I put it in Open G and....Voila!!!! Wow! Can't beat old wood!

I had to get another bridge after it split in half one day - ebony replacement....


Here is a short slide demo I recorded this afternoon (click "Listen in browser" to save going to Soundcloud...):








BluesKing777.

I love slide on old Gibson wood, here I am playing my buddy's 1916 L1. He recorded it on his phone but you'll get the idea...

[jansch]

There are plenty of resonator players - here are 10 or so - Molly Maher, Charlie Parr, John Fairhurst, Steve Dawson, Donna Herula, Reverend J. Peyton, Alexander “Sasha” Ostrovsky, R.J. Ronquillo, Fredrick Joseph Evans IV, Hat Fitz, Eric Sardinas, Michael Messer.

I have 2, MM Blues single cone and MM Lightning single cone, both great guitars.

[Pine Cone]

jansch - Great video, thanks for posting it.

As much as I would like a National, the closest woody tricone resonator I could afford was a Royall.

I got this one earlier this year https://royallguitars.com/product/ro...one-resonator/ I replaced the stock cones with a set of Beard tricones which sound great.

It is a really nice roundneck tricone resonator guitar for the price.

Next time I have a spare $4k I hope I can buy a National! Of course they probably will cost a bit more then...

[RJVB]

Looks nice and it has a nice comfortable nut width.

I'm mildly curious if a tricone would work with nylon strings and how that would sound, but (fortunately ) the non-removable saddle protector/handrest holds me back. I want to be able to mute (and possibly tap) on the saddle.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Looks nice and it has a nice comfortable nut width.

I'm mildly curious if a tricone would work with nylon strings and how that would sound, but (fortunately ) the non-removable saddle protector/handrest holds me back. I want to be able to mute (and possibly tap) on the saddle.

I just saw this post, and I would have to say it wouldn't work. Nylon strings IMO wouldn't put enough pressure on the biscuit/cone (or the T-Bar on the three cones) to keep it/them from rattling. That's an important aspect of setting up a National.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

I just saw this post, and I would have to say it wouldn't work. Nylon strings IMO wouldn't put enough pressure on the biscuit/cone (or the T-Bar on the three cones) to keep it/them from rattling. That's an important aspect of setting up a National.

That's what many told me (who apparently didn't know Chet Atkins used nylon strings on his brazilian resonator).

They were all wrong. The one from my sig is still LOUD with (high tension) nylon strings. Tension is more than enough to keep the cone well pressed onto the soundwell and to excite the very thin sheet of aluminium it is made of (much thinner and probably lighter than, say, the braced top of a classical guitar). There's absolutely no need to use the crazy high tension strings that are sold for resonators, except maybe if you really want to prevent the cone from moving sideways when you really dig in with your fingers. I've solved that issue myself by wedging a piece of thick leather between the left edge of the cone and the soundwell wall. (It holds the recurved edge of the cone in place so dampening effects are minimal.)

My concern would be that the T-Bar on a tricone would be too heavy - but I presume you could make one from carbon fibre.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by RJVB

That's what many told me (who apparently didn't know Chet Atkins used nylon strings on his brazilian resonator).

They were all wrong. The one from my sig is still LOUD with (high tension) nylon strings. Tension is more than enough to keep the cone well pressed onto the soundwell and to excite the very thin sheet of aluminium it is made of (much thinner and probably lighter than, say, the braced top of a classical guitar). There's absolutely no need to use the crazy high tension strings that are sold for resonators, except maybe if you really want to prevent the cone from moving sideways when you really dig in with your fingers. I've solved that issue myself by wedging a piece of thick leather between the left edge of the cone and the soundwell wall. (It holds the recurved edge of the cone in place so dampening effects are minimal.)

My concern would be that the T-Bar on a tricone would be too heavy - but I presume you could make one from carbon fibre.

Thanks for correcting me, but I know all about the Del Vecchio Resos Chet used which are built much lighter and differently than Nationals, and many were built to accommodate nylon or silk and steel strings. I also know about Gretsch Resos, as I've worked on a fair share of them, (along with many other Chinese built resos) and their cones and built quality is nothing like a National, light string gauges and leather holding a cone in will work, but it's not going to give you properly setup tone of a good National. It might be a tone you can work with, but the volume and tone will suffer. Your basing your opinion on a Grestsch reso which are loud compared to acoustic guitars but NOTHING like a National.

And I'm talking from experience, I own 5 National resos and worked on tons of them. I can't count the amount of older Nationals that I've opened up and found leather, or more frequently, felt, to stop a buzz or cone from sliding. Every time I removed that stuff that National sounded way better. And I've actually put National cones in many cheap resos and they never sound like a National. So yes it will work, but I sure wouldn't do it to a National. The lowest string gauge I would go on a National is a .012 set. If they make a set of high tension nylons with that tension than I would try it. But I don't know of as nylon set with that kind of tension. The famous Chris Whitley who was a monster player on Nationals used lighter strings, but every time I went saw him he was constantly re-tuning.

Bottom line, if it's a National I wouldn't use Nylon, and I'm sure if anyone asked the people at National about it they would say the same.

[RJVB]

Well, that's a good thing than - my intention wasn't to sound like a National but to have a unique, interesting and above all more versatile sound. Which is still perfectly recognisable as that of a wood-body biscuit cone resonator, btw, if you know how to recognise them. People who don't are usually more reminded of the sound of a lute or 19th century guitar, which suits me perfectly fine.

If Nationals *need* a heavier string gauge that can only mean that their cones are made of a thicker sheet of aluminium, AFAICT. The body of a resonator acts like a speaker cabinet, not like the air pump of an acoustic guitar so a heavier or lighter body should not have a big influence on the amount of sound a resonator produces.

I've never found any indication that Del Vecchios were ever built for use with "classical" strings. It would make sense, but the current production models certainly aren't, and they never answered to my questions about their history. So if you have links to back up your claim that "many were built to accomodate nylon strings" I'd be very interesting.
BTW, most silk-and-steel strings are still much higher tension than nylon strings. The trebles (of 9s or 10s) can be in the same tension range as (extra) high tension nylon treble strings (*) but the tension of the wound strings will usually be considerably higher than what a nylon-string guitar can take. As a rule of thumb, you can use a steel string G (or D or A) as a D (or A or E) on a classical and be within the right range.
*) their nominal tension as calculated from their unloaded diameter, unit weight and the reference scale length. Nylon and other composite string materials stretch which reduces their diameter and thus means their actual tension at tune is significantly lower than the tension provided by the vendor. That's one reason why there is so much variation in what different vendors call light/normal/high tension.

BTW, next time I take the cover plate off mine I will indeed try to find a wood replacement for the piece of leather that keeps my cone from moving off centre. But I've made recordings and sound level measurements that show my current solution doesn't affect sound in a perceptible manner. Logical really because it sits against a part of the cone that has only a structural function. And it still allows me to slide the cone front/aft and rotate it so I can tinker with compensation.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Well, that's a good thing than - my intention wasn't to sound like a National but to have a unique, interesting and above all more versatile sound. Which is still perfectly recognisable as that of a wood-body biscuit cone resonator, btw, if you know how to recognise them. People who don't are usually more reminded of the sound of a lute or 19th century guitar, which suits me perfectly fine.

If Nationals *need* a heavier string gauge that can only mean that their cones are made of a thicker sheet of aluminium, AFAICT. The body of a resonator acts like a speaker cabinet, not like the air pump of an acoustic guitar so a heavier or lighter body should not have a big influence on the amount of sound a resonator produces.

I've never found any indication that Del Vecchios were ever built for use with "classical" strings. It would make sense, but the current production models certainly aren't, and they never answered to my questions about their history. So if you have links to back up your claim that "many were built to accomodate nylon strings" I'd be very interesting.
BTW, most silk-and-steel strings are still much higher tension than nylon strings. The trebles (of 9s or 10s) can be in the same tension range as (extra) high tension nylon treble strings (*) but the tension of the wound strings will usually be considerably higher than what a nylon-string guitar can take. As a rule of thumb, you can use a steel string G (or D or A) as a D (or A or E) on a classical and be within the right range.
*) their nominal tension as calculated from their unloaded diameter, unit weight and the reference scale length. Nylon and other composite string materials stretch which reduces their diameter and thus means their actual tension at tune is significantly lower than the tension provided by the vendor. That's one reason why there is so much variation in what different vendors call light/normal/high tension.

BTW, next time I take the cover plate off mine I will indeed try to find a wood replacement for the piece of leather that keeps my cone from moving off centre. But I've made recordings and sound level measurements that show my current solution doesn't affect sound in a perceptible manner. Logical really because it sits against a part of the cone that has only a structural function. And it still allows me to slide the cone front/aft and rotate it so I can tinker with compensation.

Most of the assumptions you are making here are from the experience of your Gretsch, but they are not based from actual experience. Have you ever seen a DelVecchio resonator, or did you just read about them? They are built extremely light. So light that many originals are in need of repair. Most original Nationals are usually playable with very little work

DelVecchios resos do not use the same type of biscuit, and yes, many of them (as some were also steel string) were set up for Nylon strings from the factory. From Reeder Instruments who probably make one of the best repros... "The Del Vecchio style resonator proved to be a unique challenge to recreate. The design is based on an original Del Vecchio resonator but modified slightly and built to handle steel string instead of nylon which the originals were built for. The Del Vecchio design is a single cone resonator that features a shorter cone with a floating biscuit type bridge. Instead of the biscuit being attached to the top of the cone, in a traditional biscuit bridge resonator, it sits on a pointed lip on top of the cone and is held with string pressure. The biscuit is hollowed out on the inside so it only contacts the lip and is quite light"

If your into DelVecchios check this out... https://seedersinstruments.com/g003-...sonator-guitar

As for your statement about needing heavier strings, National cones are LIGHTER than the stock Gretsch reso cones, or any cone I've taken out of Chinese resonator. The reason they need heavier strings is to keep from using the fixes (like your leather or the felt I mentioned). And anything that touches the cone will dull down the response, whether it's on the middle or the cone, or the edge, it's all one piece. The reason it doesn't make as much difference on the Gretsch cones is because they are heavier built, and NOWHERE near as light and responsive as a National cone. If you ever replaced a Chinese cone with a National cone you would see that the instrument gets considerable louder. Your Gretsch should also have heavier strings if you want it's best tone and volume.

Now for you, you are looking for a unique tone, which is a good thing, but it is not what your instrument is designed for. And even the leather might contribute to what you want, perhaps you like shorter sustain, and anything that would dull the vibration of the cone, like leather or felt, would do that. I like original approaches to music, and do plenty of things that are not recommended by manufacturers. On some of my resos I use magnetic pickups and I play my Nationals through distortion boxes. Also, I have a cheap Chinese Johnson resonator that I replaced the Chinese cone with a National Hot Rod cone, and frankly I liked the stock cone reso cone better as it had certain musicality to it. So I'm game to try anything. This is that Johnson (with a new neck on it built by John Walsh a luthier in Colorado)... https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6697257

After my post, I looked for a set of ball end High Tension" nylon strings to try on my National just to compare the volume difference, so I ordered Martin M160 Silverplated Ball End Classical Guitar Strings, High Tension. I figured I would try them between one of my regular string changes so you can hear what the difference would be on my wood bodied biscuit bridge National M2 which would be closest to what you are doing with your Gretsch. I would also see if the cone would stay in place as I hate to talk without experience. Along with sound clips, I will document with pictures. My biggest worry is the string tension of the nylons will require a pretty big truss-rod adjustment if I want to try them with a low action. That said, I would take them off soon as I record the tracks, because I use that Reso for live play, and my pickup wouldn't work with the nylons, as it's designed for bronze strings.

This is what it sounds like with regular .012 gauge strings https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11939205 as you can see it's nowhere as clanky sounding as a metal bodied resonator!



But.. when it comes to basic resonator logic, if you want the cone to stay in place, and get it's best tone, it comes down to two things, the strings, and how level the lip is on the soundwell is. Many of the soundwells are distorted on the chinese imports so sometimes even with heavier strings they have low volume and buzzes that can only be corrected with the fixes. Nationals ship with very level soundwells, and 13s because after years of experience, they found that to be the best string gauge. As I said in my previous post, I use .012s, but I have a very accurate right hand as I play 5 gigs a week, and I've been playing Nationals for the last 20 years regularly (I'm artist endorsed by them and that's why I have such an interest in them).