"Return Denied" on a trial guitar... any guidance?

[ripdotcom]

If it is an OM-28A See if you can transfer the savings along to someone else (Like me) I already have a number in mind.

oops, I guess its a 00-17A ... good luck.

[TheJackal]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Isn't that the ONLY reasonable way of offering a trial on a new item?

Consider the alternative. Let's exaggerate the situation for "clarity". Let's assume you want to try a jar of peanuts. I offer them to you in a sealed, new jar. You open the jar, taste 10% of them, then decide you don't like them and return them to me. I accept them.

I subsequently have another person who wants to try the nuts. So, I send them the "new" jar that you tried, but it is now only 90% full. That person tries 10% of them and then decides he or she doesn't like them and then returns them to me. I accept them.

I subsequently have another person who wants to try the nuts, same thing happens and I send them a jar now 80% full. Continue this exaggerated situation to a conclusion and I'll end up with an empty jar of nuts that I wasn't paid for who's "value" is now depleted. I "eat" the cost of the jar of nuts.

Not to hijack the thread, well, OK to hijack it and go full mathematical, if 10% of the peanuts are removed, then 10% of the remaining are removed, and so on, there will always be peanuts (or partials in the jar.)

100% - 10% = 90%
90% - 10% (of the remaining 90%) =81%
81% - 10% (of the remaining 81%) = 72.9%
etc.
After 10 iterations, about 35% of the peanuts remain in the jar.
After 20 iterations, about 12% of the peanuts remain in the jar.
It takes about 44 iterations of removing 10% to reach 1% remaining in the jar.

So the question then becomes, how many swirls in the finish of a guitar are equal to 10% of the peanuts?

I hope the OP and guitar dealer come to a satisfactory compromise. As to me, based on my history, I should always look for guitars that already have a ding since dinging is often my first order of business when they arrive at my home.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by TheJackal

Not to hijack the thread, well, OK to hijack it and go full mathematical, if 10% of the peanuts are removed, then 10% of the remaining are removed, and so on, there will always be peanuts (or partials in the jar.)

Zeno's paradox.

Let's keep the math/philosophy simple. The jar starts with 100 peanuts. Each "trial" and subsequent trial consumes 10 peanuts... back to our regularly scheduled discussions...

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Yeah

Terms and conditions have to be legal and reasonable to apply, in every legislation.

That's a valid point.

However, your argument rests on the belief that it is unreasonable to expect that someone playing a guitar ("a trial") can return it in the same condition it was prior to trying it. That is, that it isn't possible for someone to try a guitar without damaging it.

I have tried many guitars - none through mail order - and returned all of them to their owners without damaging them. Many others have as well. It is, I suggest, reasonable to expect others to do the same.

I suggest to you that, short of rare circumstances, those who damage guitars during a trial - which might be simply having your buddy hand you his or her guitar and say, "Try this" - have incurred the damage through carelessness. For example, leaving pick marks in the finish of a guitar top isn't "an accident". While not intentional, the marks are caused by carelessness, not accident.

Regardless, none of our opinion matters. What matters is what can be worked out between the OP and the seller.

[ancient tones]

I hope things get worked out here.

As a Reverb.com buyer and seller with 500+ feedbacks, I can relate to what's going on with the the OP and the guitar dealer.

One seller's policy starts with: Your purchase not living up to your expectations? No problem.

Notice it says purchase and not trial.

Usually, in my experience, the cost of shipping both ways discourages buyers ordering for the intention of trying versus buying.

I disagree with discussions here that accepting returns with scratches for a full refund is part of doing business as a seller.

Personally, as a seller, in this situation, I would work out a "restock fee" with the buyer.

As the buyer, as stated in post 44, I created the scratches, I would offer a restock fee to the dealer.

Sometimes, like with a speeding tickey fine, you pay your bill, learn from the situation, and move on.

I'm wishing for the best and a happy solution.

[Pura Vida]

Moral of the story: don't ship peanuts with a two week trial policy unless you expect the consumer to try the peanuts.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by ancient tones

Usually, in my experience, the cost of shipping both ways discourages buyers ordering for the intention of trying versus buying.

I think the OP never intended on keeping the expensive guitar (the OP just wanted to check one out as they are not available locally to the OP), and the profit the OP made on reselling the inexpensive guitar covered the OP's shipping costs.

Just one possible scenario, here.

THIS IS JUST AN OPINION SO DON'T GET ALL IN A HUFF ABOUT IT, THANKS!

[ancient tones]

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

I think the OP never intended on keeping the expensive guitar (the OP just wanted to check one out as they are not available locally to the OP), and the profit the OP made on reselling the inexpensive guitar covered the OP's shipping costs.

Just one possible scenario, here.

THIS IS JUST AN OPINION SO DON'T GET ALL IN A HUFF ABOUT IT, THANKS!

The large online dealers that we know and love ship many guitars and talk to a lot of people every day. I don't know what the buyers intention was, but the dealers are savvy folks who were not born yesterday.

[Howard Emerson]

So given all this information regarding these particular iterations of Martin guitar, wouldn't it be prudent for ANY DEALER to post a notice: THE FINISH ON THESE GUITARS SCRATCHES VERY VERY EASILY. MAKE SURE YOU WEAR ALL COTTON LONG SLEEVES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN STARCHED WHILE GENTLY TRYING IT OUT. ANY INDICATION OF ANY SORT OF SCRATCH OR SWIRL MARK WILL NEGATE THE TERMS OF RETURNS.

Then see how many people actually purchase them.......but of course it would be very, very interesting to see how those same dealers deal with in-store customers, and how they inform potential buyers prior to handing them a tissue paper hazmat suit and kid gloves.

HE

[frankmcr]

So given all this information regarding these particular iterations of Martin guitar, wouldn't it be prudent for ANY DEALER to post a notice: THE FINISH ON THESE GUITARS SCRATCHES VERY VERY EASILY. MAKE SURE YOU WEAR ALL COTTON LONG SLEEVES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN STARCHED WHILE GENTLY TRYING IT OUT. ANY INDICATION OF ANY SORT OF SCRATCH OR SWIRL MARK WILL NEGATE THE TERMS OF RETURNS.

Then see how many people actually purchase them.......but of course it would be very, very interesting to see how those same dealers deal with in-store customers, and how they inform potential buyers prior to handing them a tissue paper hazmat suit and kid gloves.

According to the original post, OP wore cotton sweatshirt/sweatpants while trying out the guitar.

After all these posts I am starting to incline towards thinking the dealer just shouldn't send guitars that are both high priced and easily marred out on trial.

Still no photos though, so all conclusions at this point are based on speculation.

[guitar george]

Guitars should never be shipped anywhere. Too much risk and hassle.

[olhill]

Originally Posted by guitar george

Guitars should never be shipped anywhere. Too much risk and hassle.

If that was the case all guitar shops would be out of business and we'd all be flying into places like Nazareth for our new guitars. smh

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by olhill

...we'd all be flying into places like Nazareth for our new guitars.

And the problem with that is?

[Zissou Intern]

Originally Posted by guitar george

Guitars should never be shipped anywhere. Too much risk and hassle.

How do you think the guitar shops get them?

[Wild Fiddler]

OP back again.

Thanks for the many thoughtful observations in this thread.

I wanted to try working things out with the dealer before posting again. I also wanted to see the reported scratches with my own eyes and be able to post photos.

The guitar is back with me, and I am now a Charter Member. Will try posting Photos (both the dealer's and mine) in the next day or so, along with answers to questions a lot of you were asking.

I'll start a new thread, so it won't take 11 pages to find the photos and post!