The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Custom Shop

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #46  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:10 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,094
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB'sox View Post
I will be shocked if this is the case. I can not believe a headstock veneer will affect tone at all.
Oh, oh....did not mean to create a stir.... ha ha...
It is only an assumption.. and Honestly, I have no experience in this area.
I always hope that everything has some influence. Kind of fun to hope in this way.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 11-25-2018, 06:58 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,929
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
After your great reply, I can not help but ask one more.
From other experiments I have done, I am under the assumption that the peghead overlays do make some tonal influence. I noticed that you are using Braz for headstock overlay instead of using cocobolo to match the back and sides.
Are you doing this for tonal influence? Or is it strictly a cosmetic addition.
Truthfully I am using a book matched BRW overlay because that is what our client requested.

As for the tonal influence my gut says it has very minimal impact on the tone ... but the engineer in me says it [could] be a very small factor. If you attach a heavy weight to the peg head of your guitar you can hear a subtle change in timbre but that is only after adding several ounces of weight, like a large heavy C-clamp. But the change is subtle, at least to my ears. Now a peg head over lay weighs a few mere grams so I would wager that only a very precise electronic transducer and computer software might see the effect on a spectral plot but that is only an opinion and not a proven experiment that I am aware of.

Decades ago, Dan Ashcraft sure thought excess weight, at the peg head, made a discernible impact on the tone of an instrument. Dan would modify Waverly tuners by removing as much metal from the frame plates as possible. He would bore (or hollow) out the string posts, shorten the overall length of the posts and minimize the buttons to an absolute minimum all to shave a few grams from each set of the tuners. Dan was also the first one, that I am aware of, to scallop the nut, by removing material between each string. He also scalloped the saddle as well but he had another theory for that which I won't get into for this discussion.

I will be the first to admit that I understand the least about the neck and its total influence on the sound of a guitar. I'll use the analogy; is it the tail wagging the dog or is it the dog wagging its tail? The neck's function certainly is important since it anchors one end of each string. I do understand that stiffer and heavier necks will increase sustain while lighter necks tend to lessen sustain but they [can] also increase the dynamic "pop" and power of the guitar.

Some say the fingerboard plays a sonic role and we could open that can of worms but bandwidth doesn't permit. The backwards angle of the peg head can also impact the break angle of the strings over the nut which creates a lever or moment onto the neck itself. There are lots of theories but I have read little proof of concept in actual testing though evidence may exist?

I will say that if one places a guitar in a hanging stand, then attaches a ToneRite (Oh My) onto their guitar strings and then run their fingertips ALL over the guitar, neck and peg head, one can learn a LOT about where vibration nodes exist and finally what vibrating surface areas are the most active and least active. One thing is certain, there is a LOT of vibration going on in the neck and peg head but don't just take my word for it, try it for yourself.
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 11-25-2018, 08:12 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,929
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nacluth View Post
Great thread and pics!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth Casper View Post
Beautiful work there, Tim! Enjoyed the photos.

Ken

Thanks Ryan and Ken for the kind words and for following along.
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 11-25-2018, 09:45 AM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,094
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
Truthfully I am using a book matched BRW overlay because that is what our client requested.

As for the tonal influence my gut says it has very minimal impact on the tone ... but the engineer in me says it [could] be a very small factor. If you attach a heavy weight to the peg head of your guitar you can hear a subtle change in timbre but that is only after adding several ounces of weight, like a large heavy C-clamp. But the change is subtle, at least to my ears. Now a peg head over lay weighs a few mere grams so I would wager that only a very precise electronic transducer and computer software might see the effect on a spectral plot but that is only an opinion and not a proven experiment that I am aware of.

Decades ago, Dan Ashcraft sure thought excess weight, at the peg head, made a discernible impact on the tone of an instrument. Dan would modify Waverly tuners by removing as much metal from the frame plates as possible. He would bore (or hollow) out the string posts, shorten the overall length of the posts and minimize the buttons to an absolute minimum all to shave a few grams from each set of the tuners. Dan was also the first one, that I am aware of, to scallop the nut, by removing material between each string. He also scalloped the saddle as well but he had another theory for that which I won't get into for this discussion.

I will be the first to admit that I understand the least about the neck and its total influence on the sound of a guitar. I'll use the analogy; is it the tail wagging the dog or is it the dog wagging its tail? The neck's function certainly is important since it anchors one end of each string. I do understand that stiffer and heavier necks will increase sustain while lighter necks tend to lessen sustain but they [can] also increase the dynamic "pop" and power of the guitar.

Some say the fingerboard plays a sonic role and we could open that can of worms but bandwidth doesn't permit. The backwards angle of the peg head can also impact the break angle of the strings over the nut which creates a lever or moment onto the neck itself. There are lots of theories but I have read little proof of concept in actual testing though evidence may exist?

I will say that if one places a guitar in a hanging stand, then attaches a ToneRite (Oh My) onto their guitar strings and then run their fingertips ALL over the guitar, neck and peg head, one can learn a LOT about where vibration nodes exist and finally what vibrating surface areas are the most active and least active. One thing is certain, there is a LOT of vibration going on in the neck and peg head but don't just take my word for it, try it for yourself.
Once again a wonderful detailed explanation. Thank you so much.
The Way you explain things and your acceptance of all the possibilities that could contribute to sound, put you on top of my list for guitars to try out. I really look forward to that day.
Back in the Early 80's I bought a Brass headplate for my Strat. The Brass covered all of the headstock. The manufacturer premise is that you would get lots of sustain. The Brass plate attached on the underside, with the tuners going through. And indeed, you did get a lot more sustain...but LOST-Killed all the dynamics. Lasted all but five minutes on my guitar.
I guess the trick is to get both sustain and dynamics..... Or more realistic, the best balance between both.
I do not even like playing with a strobe tuner attached to the peghead. I hear a subtle difference. Yet, on the other end of the scale, I also hear differences between the various wood buttons. Small, but there.
What ever the differences, I really like your explanations of your strengthening the peghead through your shorter carbon bars, and how you laminate the sides so as it does not effect the tone and also strengthens. Makes lots of sense.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 11-26-2018, 07:47 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,929
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
Once again a wonderful detailed explanation. Thank you so much.
The Way you explain things and your acceptance of all the possibilities that could contribute to sound, put you on top of my list for guitars to try out. I really look forward to that day.
Back in the Early 80's I bought a Brass headplate for my Strat. The Brass covered all of the headstock. The manufacturer premise is that you would get lots of sustain. The Brass plate attached on the underside, with the tuners going through. And indeed, you did get a lot more sustain...but LOST-Killed all the dynamics. Lasted all but five minutes on my guitar.
I guess the trick is to get both sustain and dynamics..... Or more realistic, the best balance between both.
I do not even like playing with a strobe tuner attached to the peghead. I hear a subtle difference. Yet, on the other end of the scale, I also hear differences between the various wood buttons. Small, but there.
What ever the differences, I really like your explanations of your strengthening the peghead through your shorter carbon bars, and how you laminate the sides so as it does not effect the tone and also strengthens. Makes lots of sense.
Good morning K&G,

I do try my best to approach building guitars with an open mind. It didn't take me long to realize there are many paths to a finished product. Its the pot holes and stumbling blocks along those paths that teach us the error of our ways. That is where I learn those difficult but lasting life lessons that are not easily forgotten and hopefully not repeated.

Personally I get a lot of enjoyment from this forum not only by sharing my limited knowledge with others but also learning from other builders here. Its a great community in that we can all share ideas openly with one another as we continue this learning journey. While players are seeing the beauty of our craft I and perhaps other builders get as much enjoyment by looking in the background of their posted pictures. I get to see the tools they use, jigs and fixtures they employ and an understanding of their approach to accomplishing similar building sequences.

It sure sounds like you have a very sensitive pair of ears which is rarer than you may give them credit. Please take care of them and protect them from hearing damage and hearing loss. Having spent 38 years in a fortune 100 manufacturing factory I know first hand how damaging excess noise can be to ones hearing. Employees were tested annually and our hearing loss was charted for us to (sadly) see the change from year to year. In the latter years we were required to wear hearing protection anytime we were on the production floor. I only wish we would have had that rule 38 years earlier Now I am stuck with some hearing loss that likely could have been prevented, or at the very least, significantly reduced.

The brass headplate accessory you've described seems similar to the Plate Mate accessory, which mounts on the opposite end of the strings. That device certainly has a discernible affect on the sound of a guitar. It also has the added benefit of salvaging a bridge plate that is worn out and in dire need of costly replacement of which the value of the guitar might not justify that replacement cost?
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 11-26-2018, 09:07 AM
Mary's Avatar
Mary Mary is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: North Central Ohio
Posts: 9,469
Default

Commercial break:

McKnight Guitars gift package drawing

See this drawing post in the general forum for a chance to win a free gift package from Tim and Mary on December 15, 2018.
__________________
... make a joyful noise ...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

AGF MCKNIGHT GUITAR SNIPPETS https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=663228

I'll continue "Doin' Life ... As a Luthier's Wife"
McJam = Guitar private event June 21-22, 2024
[email protected]
Pre-sign is required and begins now.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 11-26-2018, 12:05 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,094
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
Good morning K&G,

I do try my best to approach building guitars with an open mind. It didn't take me long to realize there are many paths to a finished product. Its the pot holes and stumbling blocks along those paths that teach us the error of our ways. That is where I learn those difficult but lasting life lessons that are not easily forgotten and hopefully not repeated.

Personally I get a lot of enjoyment from this forum not only by sharing my limited knowledge with others but also learning from other builders here. Its a great community in that we can all share ideas openly with one another as we continue this learning journey. While players are seeing the beauty of our craft I and perhaps other builders get as much enjoyment by looking in the background of their posted pictures. I get to see the tools they use, jigs and fixtures they employ and an understanding of their approach to accomplishing similar building sequences.

It sure sounds like you have a very sensitive pair of ears which is rarer than you may give them credit. Please take care of them and protect them from hearing damage and hearing loss. Having spent 38 years in a fortune 100 manufacturing factory I know first hand how damaging excess noise can be to ones hearing. Employees were tested annually and our hearing loss was charted for us to (sadly) see the change from year to year. In the latter years we were required to wear hearing protection anytime we were on the production floor. I only wish we would have had that rule 38 years earlier Now I am stuck with some hearing loss that likely could have been prevented, or at the very least, significantly reduced.

The brass headplate accessory you've described seems similar to the Plate Mate accessory, which mounts on the opposite end of the strings. That device certainly has a discernible affect on the sound of a guitar. It also has the added benefit of salvaging a bridge plate that is worn out and in dire need of costly replacement of which the value of the guitar might not justify that replacement cost?
Yes, I too wish I had been more careful about wearing hearing protection. I worked with Belt grinders for many years. And previous to that, I came from the days of Loud guitar amplifiers. Unfortunately, I am sure I have some hearing loss as well.
And in the natural order of age, some hearing loss is most likely inevitable. Time escapes no one. ha ha
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 11-26-2018, 06:31 PM
David Wren's Avatar
David Wren David Wren is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 1,960
Default

Tim ... your build threads are my favorite on the entire forum ... really REALLY well done as far as I'm concerned (Mary deserves some credit too I gather?). I'll definitely be following this one too!
__________________
David Wren
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:24 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,929
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Wren View Post
Tim ... your build threads are my favorite on the entire forum ... really REALLY well done as far as I'm concerned (Mary deserves some credit too I gather?). I'll definitely be following this one too!
Wow, I'm truly humbled by your words David... and thanks for following along. Yes, Mary does deserve a LOT of credit for her participation in all of our projects. She takes 90% of the pictures and does most of the design work on the front end. She also provides an extra set of hands at just the right time.
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:34 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,929
Default

Glue is precisely applied to the kerfed lining strips:










Then the glue is spread by our precision glue spreading device:










The kerfed linings are clamped in place by just the right color clamps in just the right places.










Excess glue is washed off with hot water and a super duper shop cloth (usually an old sock)















Then the glue cures for an hour before repeating the same process on the other side of the rim:
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:38 AM
Guitars44me's Avatar
Guitars44me Guitars44me is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Mountains east of San Diego
Posts: 7,370
Smile Another Sterling Thread

I, too, love your explanations of what makes TONE ! And your theories too.

Thanks for sharing with us all. This is truly a wonderful place to hang. Always something to learn...

Have FUN

Paul
__________________
3 John Kinnaird SS 12c CUSTOMS:
Big Maple/Cedar Dread
Jumbo Spanish Cedar/WRC
Jumbo OLD Brazilian RW/WRC

R.T 2 12c sinker RW/Claro
96 422ce bought new!
96 LKSM 12
552ce 12x12

J. Stepick Bari Weissy WRC/Walnut

More
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 11-29-2018, 06:56 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,929
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitars44me View Post
I, too, love your explanations of what makes TONE ! And your theories too.

Thanks for sharing with us all. This is truly a wonderful place to hang. Always something to learn...

Have FUN

Paul
The colored clamps we use impart their own special mojo into the TONE equation Paul but that's a closely guarded secret so mum's the word on that one, OK
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 11-29-2018, 07:09 AM
Tim McKnight's Avatar
Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Morral, Ohio
Posts: 5,929
Default

The peghead gets some adhesive using two special glue spreading devices:










And this second glue spreading device is on loan from my special friend Ronald:









The peghead cover plate is set into place:










Then clamped with another special one of a kind "hand" tool:










And voila:
__________________
tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com

Last edited by Tim McKnight; 11-29-2018 at 08:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 11-29-2018, 07:25 AM
fitness1's Avatar
fitness1 fitness1 is offline
Musical minimalist
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Central Lower Michigan
Posts: 22,130
Default

You're getting a little too high tech for most of us there buddy!
__________________
"One small heart, and a great big soul that's driving"

Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 11-29-2018, 08:39 AM
j. Kinnaird's Avatar
j. Kinnaird j. Kinnaird is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,969
Default

It is a lot of fun following your build threads. I have "borrowed " more than one building technique from watching you go through the process.
And how great is it to have a photographer on staff. if I were to take a pic similar to your special 2 hand clamping procedure the camera would need a tripod, a time release, focus trials, etc. etc. and I Ain't doing that.
__________________
Kinnaird Guitars
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Custom Shop

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=