Your "cheater" chord fingerings

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

To my way of thinking theory thoughts come after the fact not before or during, mostly. I know my share of things that work that are substantiated with theory. Sure there are times I think of theory and try it out. Most often it's the other way around. I can't imagine someone thinking a long paragraph of theory before playing a note. And doing that for every note or chord.

Let me draw a simple parallel. If one were an artist, one could randomly put colors together until one found combinations one liked. Certainly, that will work. By contrast, one can be aware of basic color theory and use that theory to help "inform" or guide one's choices, reducing the amount of random trial-and-error while also suggesting combinations that might not have occurred to one.

Music theory is the same. Rather than randomly putting notes together to see which ones one likes, theory can "inform" one and guide one towards desirable combinations and combinations that one might not have otherwise randomly come across - or come across them much more quickly, reducing one's learning curve.

Anyway, I'm not "selling" theory. I was just curious if anyone found discussions like this useful. Thanks for your reply.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by cdkrugjr

It's only a "Cheat" if you believe there's One True Way to play a chord.

^^^That right there.

To make things interesting, players will use alternatives to the more standard chords. For example, I often substitute 1x0210 for an F chord. It's not a cheat; it's an artistic decision.

[Beakybird]

Here's an easy, bassy Eb with no barring:

6 x 5 0 4 6

Play an open C with a G bass with your pinky on the 3rd fret of the high E. Then move the chord structure up 3 frets.

There are some chess masters of the fret board here. I am mostly a guy who likes to bang out a good tune and sing along.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by RagtopGT

At age 67 I didn't start playing until 14 years ago. I could never do full barre chords. A few years ago after I retired I dedicated almost four solid months of practicing nothing but barres, every single day, all in vain. Can't do it and I've given up.

Had you considered a guitar with a different neck radius? A lot of acoustics come with 15" or 16" radii. And while I can don't have any trouble with them I find a 12" easier and I like the 9.5" radius on some of my electrics even better. It's the way the curvature of my fingers fall on the fingerboard.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

A question:

When topics like this arise, as they often do, some of those responding begin reeling out the music theory. Does this help anyone, really?

I mean, basic music theory isn't particularly difficult. Anyone who wants to can learn it. There are many sources of information including teachers, on-line videos, websites, books, even magazine articles. It isn't like basic music theory is a secret that only a few in-the-know people know about. It's widely available to anyone who wants to learn it. Does having someone introduce tidbits of theory in discussions make any difference to those reading these discussions? Many guitar players seem to wear as a badge of courage that they can't read music, can't "spell" chords and know no music theory. I ask in all sincerity.

===================================

As an aside, Vindibona1 posted four different fingerings. The first one, an A- chord, doubles the fifth, the E. The second one, an A-7 chord, doubles the fifth while adding the (minor) 7th. The Third one, an A-7 chord, doubles the root, A. The fourth one, an A-7 chord, doubles the (minor) 7th, G.

The general "rules" are to double the root or fifth. Doubling the third or 7th isn't often done as it changes the character of the chord, as can changing the inversion. For example, in the third fingering, if one plays a C in the base, doubling the third, it'll tend to sound more like a C chord (C6). Same notes, different "voicing": voicing matters. Of course, one can double any note as a passing tone, but doubling certain notes will make the chord sound "thin".

Obviously you missed my point of the exericse. It was to show the relationship of the fingering, how simple they are to move from one to another, how minor and minor 7th are related, while also pointing out the basics of the structure of the chords. For those who don't yet understand what it means or relates to of for those that don't care, it doesn't matter. It's unimportant. Some who read the reply might be at the point where they might appreciate it. You can still see the fingering charts. People can use this information, or not, at their discretion.

The other thing is that many, if not most of us begin by learning chord shapes, but so many NEVER learn the notes on the fingerboard. And again, it's not a requirement to grasp the shapes and fingerings of the chord chart.

[Tannin]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

A question:

When topics like this arise, as they often do, some of those responding begin reeling out the music theory. Does this help anyone, really?

Absolutely! Given a few theory basics, you can nut anything out you want to nut out. For this sort of thing (messing with different chord alternatives) or for tinkering with a song you haven't got sounding the way you want it to sound, some theory is all but indispensable.

Example. Suppose the song calls for an E7 but when you play a conventional E7, it just doesn't fit well with the rest of what you are doing. You want more zing out of it. You can hear the thing in your head but you don't know how to play it.

With a little theory, you can soon find another D on the second string. Hey Presto! There is the sound you wanted, and you didn't need to look anything up or ask anyone or spend hours mucking about trying stuff at random, the knowledge you needed to construct that chord exactly the way you wanted it was already all there in your head.

Learn a chord, you can play a song. Learn how to make a chord, you can play all of the songs.

[jseth]

Having played a vast percentage of my "gigging" life as a solo guitarist and vocalist, I've always loved chords that "sounded" different than the norm...

I did this for years and years before I knew one iota of music theory/harmony. After learning theory/harmony, I could figure out what those chord shapes were... but I still love doing it.

The resonant qualities of a great acoustic guitar really lend themselves to letting open strings ring out or to use a lower string as a constant pulse while other partial chords are played all over the place...

I've always loved the sound of a D major chord without fretting the F# on the high E string... just let the high E ring out with the chord. Technically, it's a D sus2 chord (no 3rd), but I didn't have to know that to appreciate the sound of it.

Playing an F#min chord with this shape:

o 4 4 2 o o... but emphasizing the middle strings...

Or, if I want that low F# note to be prominent:

2 m/o 2 2 o o...

It's just a very cool sounding form of an F#min 7/11, but it works for the key E major and it works for the key of D and A major, as well...

I'll play odd shapes like that all over the fretboard, depending on the song and what I want to hear on it...

I love making standard tuning "sound like" an alternate tuning...

[JBCROTTY]

Originally Posted by Goodallboy

Get a big poster of triads, up and down the neck. It opens up the fretboard more than any other method ever did for me. If you do, you'll see how everything is related.

It will feel like cheating.

I am going to try this. While I have spent time understanding the basics of music theory, I have always marveled at how some players can range all over the fret board or interchange shapes across a single song. I thought I was a big shot when I learned to interchange open fingerings with barre shapes - even that small step forward expanded my flexibility in a song. This may take that one step further.....

One of my favorite players - Pat McGee of the Pat McGee band - does this quite frequently. He claims he doesn't know the chord - just likes the sound - which I'm not sure I believe. He can hit a chord voicing in multiple positions and I've always wondered how he does this (aside from memorizing fingerings). I'm guessing the triad structure discussed here is the reason. I'm going to try to figure this out - I'm excited to learn this!

Great post and thanks for the tip!

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Obviously you missed my point of the exericse. It was to show the relationship of the fingering, how simple they are to move from one to another, how minor and minor 7th are related, while also pointing out the basics of the structure of the chords.

I understood the point of your exercise. I'm not sure you understood the question I asked of those reading the discussion that was related to your discussion.

My question was whether or not those reading the discussion find "pointing out the basics of the structure of the chords", and related theory, useful. It was not intended as any comment on you or the information you provided. It was about those "receiving" that information, and how relevant they find it.

... it's not a requirement to grasp the shapes and fingerings of the chord chart.

Just as it isn't a requirement for artists to know basic color theory, writers to know basic spelling and grammar or scientists to grasp basic mathematics. But, it sure can help. Depends upon what one wants from one's efforts and what are one's natural talents.

[TJE]

Originally Posted by jseth

Having played a vast percentage of my "gigging" life as a solo guitarist and vocalist, I've always loved chords that "sounded" different than the norm...

I did this for years and years before I knew one iota of music theory/harmony. After learning theory/harmony, I could figure out what those chord shapes were... but I still love doing it.

The resonant qualities of a great acoustic guitar really lend themselves to letting open strings ring out or to use a lower string as a constant pulse while other partial chords are played all over the place...

I've always loved the sound of a D major chord without fretting the F# on the high E string... just let the high E ring out with the chord. Technically, it's a D sus2 chord (no 3rd), but I didn't have to know that to appreciate the sound of it.

Playing an F#min chord with this shape:

o 4 4 2 o o... but emphasizing the middle strings...

Or, if I want that low F# note to be prominent:

2 m/o 2 2 o o...

It's just a very cool sounding form of an F#min 7/11, but it works for the key E major and it works for the key of D and A major, as well...

I'll play odd shapes like that all over the fretboard, depending on the song and what I want to hear on it...

I love making standard tuning "sound like" an alternate tuning...

Would be so kind to share some more or all of these shapes?☺️......

[JimCA]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

A question:

When topics like this arise, as they often do, some of those responding begin reeling out the music theory. Does this help anyone, really?

I mean, basic music theory isn't particularly difficult. Anyone who wants to can learn it. There are many sources of information including teachers, on-line videos, websites, books, even magazine articles. It isn't like basic music theory is a secret that only a few in-the-know people know about. It's widely available to anyone who wants to learn it. Does having someone introduce tidbits of theory in discussions make any difference to those reading these discussions? Many guitar players seem to wear as a badge of courage that they can't read music, can't "spell" chords and know no music theory. I ask in all sincerity.

===================================

As an aside, Vindibona1 posted four different fingerings. The first one, an A- chord, doubles the fifth, the E. The second one, an A-7 chord, doubles the fifth while adding the (minor) 7th. The Third one, an A-7 chord, doubles the root, A. The fourth one, an A-7 chord, doubles the (minor) 7th, G.

The general "rules" are to double the root or fifth. Doubling the third or 7th isn't often done as it changes the character of the chord, as can changing the inversion. For example, in the third fingering, if one plays a C in the base, doubling the third, it'll tend to sound more like a C chord (C6). Same notes, different "voicing": voicing matters. Of course, one can double any note as a passing tone, but doubling certain notes will make the chord sound "thin".

Hi Charles,

I've learned a lot from your posts but this one baffles me. I'm not sure if it's intended to be ironic.

I've learned a lot of theory on this forum. I think a musical vocabulary based on theory makes for efficient communication of concepts, as you did in your second paragraph. "Rules" on the other hand get my hackles up. I haven't heard the rule to double the 5th but not the 3rd. I have heard the jazz rule to drop the 5th, since the root and 3rd give the character of the chord.

Respectfully, Jim.

[endpin]

The curse of the guitar player is the notion that because our instruments have 6 strings, we have to play every one of ‘em ALL-THE-TIME!

[PHJim]

Why would anyone say that something that sounds good is "cheating". There's no cheating in playing the guitar. If it sounds good, it is good.

Is using an open or altered tuning cheating?
Is using a capo cheating?
Is using your left thumb to fret cheating?
Is using a looper cheating?
Is using a slide cheating?

I've heard all of these either called cheating or having it implied that a "real guitar player" doesn't have to resort to them.
If the results make good music, who cares?

[Deliberate1]

Originally Posted by endpin

The curse of the guitar player is the notion that because our instruments have 6 strings, we have to play every one of ‘em ALL-THE-TIME!

I hear you. A month or so into my still fledgling guitar journey, a fellow I was playing with told me, after hearing me fumble my way through a tune, "you know, you don't have to play all the notes in a chord."
That might be the first "rule" I ever learned. A keeper.
David

[jseth]

Originally Posted by TJE

Would be so kind to share some more or all of these shapes?☺️......

I'd gladly share some... don't have that nifty method of "block diagrams" of chords, but I'll do what I can...

1) Your "standard" open position "F maj7" chord shape... x - x - 3 - 2 - 1 - o... when moving this shape around the fretboard, I will usually let those bottom strings ring out, emphasizing the low E or the low A, depending on what I'm wanting to hear...

Move this shape all over the fretboard; some positions don't work but many do, even with some interesting tensions arising from the open strings droning... I especially like this shape at the fifth fret as an A maj chord, but it works at the 7th fret (the open E gives it a suspended chord feel, while the A string gives it the dominant 7th). Also has an interesting sound at the 3rd fret, without the low E - a bit of that maj 9th sound.

2) Open position A major chord, then lift the 2nd fret D string to make an A 11th sound... moving this one around the fretboard can be juicy. I use it at the 7th fret all the time for a D major sound; leads hand in glove to playing harmonized "scales" in D major and A major (with open strings droning), as well as G major (watch which open strings that you allow to ring out) and E major.

3) More on those first two shapes I mentioned for an F#min sound... moving these around the fretboard gives you all sorts of interesting sounds... at the 4th fret, you get a "kinda-sorta" G#min... at the 5th fret, more of an Amin. They sound very similar when played at the 7th and 9th fret, as well...

4) Employing harmonized scales in 3rds... I use these all over the fretboard, mostly with fretting the G and B strings, but also using the D and G strings or the B and E strings... basically, all you want to do is to start with a "Do" sound and then follow through with "Do- Re - Mi - Fa - Sol - La - Ti - Do", in whatever key you choose.

An example would be, using the G and B strings... open (Do) - 1 - 2 (B and G string respectively), then 3 - 4, 5 and 5, 7 and 7, 8 - 9, 10 - 11, 12 -12...

Knowing this shape/scale for every key is a very good thing! Especially for those "guitar-centric" keys: G, C, A, D, E... almost everyone knows the "Do-Re-Mi" song from Sound of Music, so just sing along with yourself as you learn new ones...

The finger position changes when you switch to the D and G string and the B and E string "forms", but always stays consistent within those two chosen strings...

There you go! Oh, wait... one more shape...

Make any form of an open position Amaj chord with your last two or three fingers (save the first finger!), and move that around the fretboard, using the first finger to fret the note 2 frets below the A shape at the 7th fret - you end up with the E note at the 7th fret on the A string, and the other notes give you a form of an E chord - then let the low and high E strings ring out... indispensable for a whole lot of good singer-songwriter tunes from the 60's and forward... I especially like the sound of just using the fretted notes for the A, D and G strings at the 7th fret... let the high E and B string ring...

[Axelorox]

What program are you guys using to come up with those chord diagrams?