Eastman O vs OO

EllenGtrGrl · #1 07-25-2021, 01:06 PM

I needed some new strings for my Epiphone Inspired by Gibson J45, so I stopped off at my favorite guitar shop (Cream City Music), and decided to play some guitars. For the first time in at least 10 years, they are a Guild dealer. I checked out a few of the Guilds (mainly B-stock - that's all they can get their hands on in these Covid times), and they were nice guitars - I just wish the necks were thicker.

I spied a used Eastman E2OOSS on the wall. While I still like my 'dreads, in recent times I've focusing more on the smaller bodied guitars. The thing is, I'm a flatpicker, and as a result, with the exception of Breedlove Concertina I had for a few months in 2019 & 2020 (that I got rid of due to its [for me] uncomfortably thin neck), virtually all 00 & 0 size guitars I've tried or had (my old Waterloo WL12 Mh, and my current Fender PM2) have been a flop for me sound-wise - they have a tendency to woof out/lose note clarity, when I play them, so I've concentrated on OM-style guitars, for smaller bodied guitars. They're nice guitars, but not what I originally intended to get for smaller bodied guitars. So, with that in mind, and figuring "nothing ventured, nothing gained", I decided to give the Eastman E20OOSS a try.

All I could say was "wow!" It sounded great. Nice and punchy, with plenty of bass, and none of the loss in note clarity/definition I've experienced with other Style-00, or Style-0 guitars I've played. I seriously considered buying it. The one thing that held me back was its neck width at the the nut - 1 11/16". Now my J-45 has this neck width, and my electric guitars also have it, so I have no problem playing guitars with a 1 11/16" neck width at the nut, but I will admit, that after having owned guitars with a 1 3/4" nut, I do have a preference for guitars with wider necks - they seem to work better for my "classical" playing style (thumb behind the neck) better. With that thought in mind, despite the wait (once again due to Covid) probably being forever and then some, I inquired about ordering an E20OO, with it's wider neck, and 12-fret body style (Cream City Music is also an Eastman dealer).

The thing is, after watching some YouTube vids, and seeing Andy demo both his Eastman 0-Style, and his Eastman 00-Style (I remember when he commented in a some AGF posts about the video), I'm wondering if getting an 0-style might be a better option. Andy seemed to get more bass response from his Eastman 0-Style, than he did from his Eastman 00-Style.

I also have an additional concern - while the killer sounding E20OOSS I played had a rosewood back and sides (which the E20OO also has), last year I played an E10OO (which has mahogany back and sides), and encountered the same issues I've encountered with other Style-0 and Style-00 guitars - woofingnotes/loss of note clarity/definition, when playing the E10OO. It makes me wonder if the E20OOSS I tried out was an anomaly, and I would encounter the same sound issues with an E20OO or E20P, that I've encountered with just about every other 00 or parlor guitar I've played with a flat pick (in other words, after all of the recent debates that have gone on in the AGF, I'm not certain if getting a 00 or parlor with rosewood sides, will change the sound enough for my benefit).

Please feel free to chime in on the subject

eljay · #2 07-25-2021, 01:45 PM

I have 2 Eastman OMs, a double-top RW and a thermally-treated red spruce on mahogany. Both are most pleasing to me. FWIW, I've concluded that most guitars 00 and smaller have the boxy sound that I detest.

EllenGtrGrl · #3 07-25-2021, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eljay

I have 2 Eastman OMs, a double-top RW and a thermally-treated red spruce on mahogany. Both are most pleasing to me. FWIW, I've concluded that most guitars 00 and smaller have the boxy sound that I detest.

That's also usually the case for me. I think that's why I was so surprised at the way the E2OOSS sounded when I played it. It was anything but boxy sounding (and I don't like boxy sounding guitars).

tomcstokes59 · #4 07-25-2021, 02:05 PM

Out of curiosity have you ever tried a Larrivee 00-40R? I have been trying to get over to Spruce Tree Music in Madison. They have a couple of the 0/00/000 12 fret Larrivees in stock. Supposedly the -40 are a deeper body with some better base response. I do not know personally as I have not been able to try one. I was just wondering if you had and your thoughts.

Silly Moustache · #5 07-25-2021, 02:11 PM

Hi Ellen, Andy the SillY M, here!

My 00 isn't typical of the normal 00s as it is a hand buuilt "E40", so my E20-P is more solidly built and has a somewhat more"Robust" sound, compared to the E40's more subtle but "prettier" tone - plus the bling of course.

I preferred to go for rosewood but many discerning players prefer the more direct tone of mahogany, and I have a number of "hogs" and certainly wouldn't consider it a secondary tonewood.

In all honesty, the difference in body volume between the sizes "0" and "00" is so minimal as whilst slightly wider, the depth is slightly thinner.

My E20-P has quite a clumpy neck profile, and I'd assume this would apply to the E10-p, and the standard 00 versions too.

I do think that the 00 shape is a little prettier.

Let me know if I can help further.

roylor4 · #6 07-25-2021, 02:32 PM

Ellen, you may want to consider a Martin Jr size. I have played Eastman parlors and while the Martin 000 Jr isn't nearly as loud and does have a super-short scale (24"), it is a surprisingly good little guitar. 1.75" nut and decent, though not really thick neck. FWIW, I'm more of a rhythm player and not-so-much of a flatpicker, but I have found the clarity and not separation to be very good. Might be worth a test drive, especially given it's low price. I would expect the D Jr to be louder and more dynamic.

In the OM/000 category, I would put my Recording King ROS-10 up against almost anything other than a small shop build - surprisingly good and baseball bat neck.

Good luck in your search.

carmona_nostra · #7 07-25-2021, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eljay

I have 2 Eastman OMs, a double-top RW and a thermally-treated red spruce on mahogany. Both are most pleasing to me. FWIW, I've concluded that most guitars 00 and smaller have the boxy sound that I detest.

If you get the chance you should play a Bourgeois 00 Coupe. Nothing boxy about it at all.

KevinH · #8 07-25-2021, 05:25 PM

I have both the Larrivee 00-40R and a Breedlove Concertina, like the OP mentioned. IMO, if the neck on the Breedlove was too thin, I'd bet she feel the same way about the Larrivee 00 neck. I find them to be quite similar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcstokes59

Out of curiosity have you ever tried a Larrivee 00-40R? I have been trying to get over to Spruce Tree Music in Madison. They have a couple of the 0/00/000 12 fret Larrivees in stock. Supposedly the -40 are a deeper body with some better base response. I do not know personally as I have not been able to try one. I was just wondering if you had and your thoughts.

TRose · #9 07-25-2021, 05:53 PM

I recently picked up an used Eastman 00-10. The neck is a beefy D shape- which I love. I too have a more classical, thumb behind the neck left hand playing style. The nut is 1&13/16.

To me, the guitar does not sound boxy. At all. I play finger style so can not comment on how it sounds strummed or flat picked. I’m surprised at how good it sounds.

I have not played a “0” or P sized Eastman. So I can’t compare the two.

Good luck with your search.

EllenGtrGrl · #10 07-25-2021, 06:59 PM

Thanks for all of the replies.

With regards to Larrivee and Martin - they're great guitars (especially IMO, the Larrivees), but I've played both Larrivees and Martins, and find their neck thicknesses (fingerboard to the back of the neck) to be too thin for my comfort. I don't have that problem with Eastmans - their necks are decently chunky for me.

Bourgeois Guitars - I have no comment, they're quite a bit out of my price range.

Sound requirements - no boxy sound (I need my note definition). Since I flat pick, this can be a bit of a challenge with smaller bodied guitars, since they seem to be geared more towards fingerstyle playing (which is a shame - while 'dreads don't have this issue when you flat pick, I'm looking for variation from the dreadnought sound).

kliend · #11 07-25-2021, 08:55 PM

Let us know what you think if you get a chance to play them

Fret-O'File · #12 07-26-2021, 01:01 PM

I've owned and have played many Eastmans over the years.
I owned an E20-OO 12 fret that sounded bigger, louder, and had more bass than many OMs I've played. It was a fantastic-sounding guitar. I sold it after a couple of years as the neck was a bit too fat and the nut just a bit too wide for me. I've also played a couple of E20-P parlors that also sounded much bigger than many parlors, OO & OOO guitars I've played. They did have the same necks and nut widths as the E20-OO 12 fret so they just don't work for me but the sound was great.
I've played one E10-OO 14 fret and it didn't sound nearly as big and full as the other guitars I've described above. It sounded more like a smaller blues box kind of guitar. I bought an E1-OOSS-LTD a couple of years ago and it's more like the E10-OO I played. It sounds great but it sounds like a smaller guitar. I use it to play acoustic blues and songs where I don't want that heavy bass and big sound so it works great for that.
So in my experience, the rosewood 12 fret Eastmans seem to have that big, full sound with ample bass, and the E10-OO and E1-OO 14 fret guitars have that smaller sound with less bass. It certainly might come down to the individual instrument and my sampling size might be too small to say for sure.
They all sounded great, just different.

EllenGtrGrl · #13 07-26-2021, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fret-O'File

I've owned and have played many Eastmans over the years.
I owned an E20-OO 12 fret that sounded bigger, louder, and had more bass than many OMs I've played. It was a fantastic-sounding guitar. I sold it after a couple of years as the neck was a bit too fat and the nut just a bit too wide for me. I've also played a couple of E20-P parlors that also sounded much bigger than many parlors, OO & OOO guitars I've played. They did have the same necks and nut widths as the E20-OO 12 fret so they just don't work for me but the sound was great.
I've played one E10-OO 14 fret and it didn't sound nearly as big and full as the other guitars I've described above. It sounded more like a smaller blues box kind of guitar. I bought an E1-OOSS-LTD a couple of years ago and it's more like the E10-OO I played. It sounds great but it sounds like a smaller guitar. I use it to play acoustic blues and songs where I don't want that heavy bass and big sound so it works great for that.
So in my experience, the rosewood 12 fret Eastmans seem to have that big, full sound with ample bass, and the E10-OO and E1-OO 14 fret guitars have that smaller sound with less bass. It certainly might come down to the individual instrument and my sampling size might be too small to say for sure.
They all sounded great, just different.

Thanks for the info. I'm kind of leaning towards a 12-fret. I've had a few over the years, and I've always liked their warmer (than a 14 fret IMO) sound. I'm tempted by the E20P, but I don't know if I'll overdrive the soundboard with my playing style (I'm not a fingerstyle player). Typically, the smaller the guitar, the easier it is to drove the soundboard too hard, to the point where everything sounds muddy and compressed. The 00 may be the way to go - I don't know.

Fret-O'File · #14 07-26-2021, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl

Thanks for the info. I'm kind of leaning towards a 12-fret. I've had a few over the years, and I've always liked their warmer (than a 14 fret IMO) sound. I'm tempted by the E20P, but I don't know if I'll overdrive the soundboard with my playing style (I'm not a fingerstyle player). Typically, the smaller the guitar, the easier it is to drove the soundboard too hard, to the point where everything sounds muddy and compressed. The 00 may be the way to go - I don't know.

Just be prepared for a big chunky neck and wide nut on the 12 fret Eastmans. I was able to strum and not overdrive my E20-OO, the E20P I couldn't say.

SRL · #15 07-26-2021, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl

Thanks for the info. I'm kind of leaning towards a 12-fret. I've had a few over the years, and I've always liked their warmer (than a 14 fret IMO) sound. I'm tempted by the E20P, but I don't know if I'll overdrive the soundboard with my playing style (I'm not a fingerstyle player). Typically, the smaller the guitar, the easier it is to drove the soundboard too hard, to the point where everything sounds muddy and compressed. The 00 may be the way to go - I don't know.

I would go with something 00 sized. If you like a fatter neck, Eastman is a good bet.

I'm curious if the Breedlove Concertina you had was a US model or an import. The necks are quite different (fatter neck with 1.75" nut on the US models). I have a US Concertina that I absolutely love; it has a very big sound for a 00-ish sized guitar (although kind of halfway between a 00 and 000, really). You can get them for $1000-1500 on the used market.

Regarding your first post, yes, I find that guitars smaller than 00-size, and even a lot of 00's, have a fairly weak tone. I'm not sure it's as "boxy" as a laminate guitar, but it's definitely weak in the bass register, which leads to a thinner sound

My suspicion on why guitars start to sound boxy as they get smaller is that the soundboards just get too small to generate enough bass, similar to how speakers work. The most important dimension here seems to be width of the soundboard, which is probably why a lot of the most popular travel guitars are "mini jumbo" shape (Taylor GS Mini, Alvarez LJ, Breedlove Companion), or mini-dreadnought shaped (Martin Dreadnought Jr., Taylor Big Baby), while parlor-shape (long and narrow) travel guitars have largely fallen by the wayside.