Vintage Bay State Neck Reset

redir · #1 10-27-2020, 07:46 AM

This one came in for a bridge reglue and crack repair but the neck was already loose and definitely needed to be reset. It was simply a matter of removing the FB tongue. Then I got to see what joint was used. It's simply a tenon that is only about 1/8th inch or so deep. It is not a dovetail. It fits precisely into the pocket that was routed out for it. But I am not confident that glue alone will hold it in there well enough. Obviously it has not from the original design. I thought about adding one screw through the head block but I don't want to hurt it's vintage value in doing so, if any. Perhaps a biscuit of some sort?

Thoughts?

Have any of you who do vintage repairs come across one of these?

phavriluk · #2 10-27-2020, 08:12 AM

And this is quite a dilemma. Historically important? Collectable? Originality value? Least invasive resolution, to me, is a pair of hangar bolts backstopping the reglued neck and fingerboard joints. Sounds like the owner wants to keep playing the instrument.

Here's what I think is a similar situation some gearheads can understand: A good way to kill the value of a 100-point 1938 Ford, for example, is a disk brake conversion, some anachronistic modification that is a functional improvement but is historically destructive. But mighty useful going down the road. Depends what the owner values and what (s)he wants to do with the thing.

RonMay · #3 10-27-2020, 06:26 PM

What's the value of this guitar? Is it collectible? How much is still original? What year was it made. Does it have a maker label and serial number inside?

The questions are those and does the owner want it just to be playable or does it want it to last and playable. Also is there any sentimental value to the owner. That's very important.

If it's lasted for fifty years then Titebond it back as is. That will last a lot longer than hide glue.

Ron

M Hayden · #4 10-27-2020, 09:43 PM

Yes, talk to the owner.

If it were mine, I’d say put a screw insert or two into the heel and join it back that way. It’d be sturdier and more durable, and certainly easier to fix next time.

But the owner might feel differently.

Either way, show us what the result is - I’m curious!

redir · #5 10-28-2020, 07:29 AM

I don't know the value of it, only what people are trying to sell them for and it ranges from reasonable to ridiculous. It is BRW back and side though so it would range on the high side of what it's worth. I's guess about $1000 USD.

I did just come across this site: https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...e-style-h.html

And he says he uses a double bolt. I may try and contact him.

Regards.

mirwa · #6 10-28-2020, 08:23 AM

It will glue up fine, when you do it, loose the heel cap and fit it back on afterwards, have across a few of these over the years, that being said it is aperfect candidate for a partial bolt on neck

Steve

redir · #7 10-28-2020, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirwa

It will glue up fine, when you do it, loose the heel cap and fit it back on afterwards, have across a few of these over the years, that being said it is aperfect candidate for a partial bolt on neck

Steve

Yeah I cut the heal cap back so that it will mount flush. So you just glued them right back in then? I mean after all it is a 130 year old guitar and it obviously held like that for some time.

I'm impressed with how well they managed to fit the heal into the joint, it's totally invisible.

printer2 · #8 10-28-2020, 01:39 PM

No binding?

redir · #9 10-28-2020, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2

No binding?

Correct. No binding on top or back.

mirwa · #10 10-28-2020, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir

I'm impressed with how well they managed to fit the heal into the joint, it's totally invisible.

That is the reason it has held on so well, nice tight fit on the sidewalls

Steve

John Arnold · #11 10-30-2020, 01:58 PM

I have reset a few of this particular joint. In addition to Bay State and Vega, some of the Weymanns used this configuration, which is similar to violins. The main difference with a violin is that the neck is glued to the back button, which is a more reliable joint.
I would not recommend Titebond. Hot hide glue is much more effective on end grain, and will stick to old hide glue. I did use a screw on one (Bay State) and it worked out fine. A single drywall screw is more than sufficient.

redir · #12 10-30-2020, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Arnold

I have reset a few of this particular joint. In addition to Bay State and Vega, some of the Weymanns used this configuration, which is similar to violins. The main difference with a violin is that the neck is glued to the back button, which is a more reliable joint.
I would not recommend Titebond. Hot hide glue is much more effective on end grain, and will stick to old hide glue. I did use a screw on one (Bay State) and it worked out fine. A single drywall screw is more than sufficient.

Yup I will use HHG for sure. So did you use HHG and the screw or just the screw? Thanks John.

RHayes · #13 10-30-2020, 06:46 PM

redir, just curious what you would do on glue up in this situation? I assume it was hg? Maybe first brush on some hot water to soften old glue and swell up compressed wood, then medium HHG and put together? It's somewhat fiddle like and most of them stay together! Thanks for sharing your repair.

redir · #14 10-30-2020, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RHayes

redir, just curious what you would do on glue up in this situation? I assume it was hg? Maybe first brush on some hot water to soften old glue and swell up compressed wood, then medium HHG and put together? It's somewhat fiddle like and most of them stay together! Thanks for sharing your repair.

It's a done deal. Just HHG and clamps and clean up, no screw. The fit was really tight. She will have strings on her Sunday.