Emerald and truss rod question

[bcopeland8900]

Calling all guitar setup genius's

On my X-20 I have noticed that my fretted 12th fret is sharp when compared to the natural 12 fret harmonic and open string (for all strings). Continuing to check, the guitar progressively gets sharper versus what the fretted note should be as you work up the neck. Starts being noticable at fret 5 or 7. The guitar is strung with mediums and tuned to an open Cm (CGCEbGC).

With the higher string gauge tuned down and a carbon fiber neck should the guitar need a truss rod adjustment to correct the intonation? The guitar has the standard Emerald factory setup.

Cant get to my standard setup guy currently due to the pandemic so any help is appreciated.

Thank you,
-B

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by bcopeland8900

Calling all guitar setup genius's

On my X-20 I have noticed that my fretted 12th fret is sharp when compared to the natural 12 fret harmonic and open string (for all strings). Continuing to check, the guitar progressively gets sharper versus what the fretted note should be as you work up the neck. Starts being noticable at fret 5 or 7. The guitar is strung with mediums and tuned to an open Cm (CGCEbGC).

With the higher string gauge tuned down and a carbon fiber neck should the guitar need a truss rod adjustment to correct the intonation? The guitar has the standard Emerald factory setup.

Cant get to my standard setup guy currently due to the pandemic so any help is appreciated.

Thank you,
-B

Adjusting the truss rod will not affect the intonation - it's for neck relief, not tuning or action.

I suspect that your issues are related to your low tuning. If you're planning to keep it like that, the saddle is where the attention is needed - it will be compensated for standard tuning, which won't necessarily work for anything significantly lower.

You might want to try tuning up a whole tone from where you are (i.e. DADFAD, or Dm), and see if things get better. If they do, that would also point to the saddle.

[Earl49]

If you are using non-standard tuning with regular string gauges, then the setup will need to be tweaked accordingly to compensate for intonation problems. A compensated saddle and possibly a new compensated nut are in order. When I use lowered tunings the string gauge has to be increased. I use medium gauge 56-13 and sometimes tune down to CFCGCE or even Open C tuning [CGCEGC] and do not get much variation in intonation. I have on occasion even taken heavy gauge 59-14 D'Addario EJ-18 and tuned C-c (standard minus two whole steps) for a pseudo baritone effect. Intonation issues start to there on normal 25.5" scale guitars.

Ditto to David's suggestion to go up a whole step to Dm. If that helps the intonation issue, you have a big clue.

[bcopeland8900]

Originally Posted by bcopeland8900

Calling all guitar setup genius's

On my X-20 I have noticed that my fretted 12th fret is sharp when compared to the natural 12 fret harmonic and open string (for all strings). Continuing to check, the guitar progressively gets sharper versus what the fretted note should be as you work up the neck. Starts being noticable at fret 5 or 7. The guitar is strung with mediums and tuned to an open Cm (CGCEbGC).

With the higher string gauge tuned down and a carbon fiber neck should the guitar need a truss rod adjustment to correct the intonation? The guitar has the standard Emerald factory setup.

Cant get to my standard setup guy currently due to the pandemic so any help is appreciated.

Thank you,
-B

Thanks to all for the inputs. I tuned up 1 step to Dm and still see intonation issues on the lower string, but at the higher pitch, it isn't as noticable. I can still see it on the tuner though. I am not going to tackle a saddle mod myself at this point though.

Regarding the comment of increasing string guages to enable the lower notes, the Cm tuned guitar uses D'addario mediums. Did i interpret tge comment correctly that i might be able to address the intonation issues through string guage alone?

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by bcopeland8900

Thanks to all for the inputs. I tuned up 1 step to Dm and still see intonation issues on the lower string, but at the higher pitch, it isn't as noticable. I can still see it on the tuner though. I am not going to tackle a saddle mod myself at this point though.

Regarding the comment of increasing string guages to enable the lower notes, the Cm tuned guitar uses D'addario mediums. Did i interpret tge comment correctly that i might be able to address the intonation issues through string guage alone?

It can certainly help - particularly for the lower end - but I'm not sure it will get you all the way. It should be easy enough to try, though, as long as your nut slots can handle something a bit fatter.

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by bcopeland8900

Did i interpret the comment correctly that i might be able to address the intonation issues through string gauge alone?

Not quite. Heavier strings should help when tuning down, but ramping or intonating the saddle to compensate is the only real solution. It is a little unrealistic to expect a 12th fret harmonic and the fretted string to agree perfectly on an acoustic guitar when using an electronic tuner -- most fretted notes are a couple of "cents" or needle-widths off due to effects of bending the string. Is the difference something that you can actually hear or just display on the tuner?

An ideal string can theoretically be made to match, but strings are not ideal in the real world. Intonation on acoustics can be made pretty close but rarely perfect. On an electric guitar with six movable bridges the fretted and harmonic notes can be set to agree very closely, often done using a strobe light. But if you look in detail at one of those, you will end up with the same kind of stepped or offset footprint as an intonated acoustic saddle gives you - and often more offset than can be achieved on a fairly narrow acoustic saddle.

Each string has different core and winding thicknesses, so needs its own unique length between saddle and nut slot for "best" intonation. Most of us end up "sweetening" the tuning by adjusting the problem string a needle width or two flat, knowing it will be up to pitch when fretted. Errors are always more noticeable when sharp of the note than when slightly flat.

The best solution is to choose the string set and the tuning you most want to use, then have that guitar set up specifically with those in mind. It will probably then be off a bit in standard (or other) tunings, but dialed in better for Cm.

Originally Posted by eatswodo

....It should be easy enough to try, though, as long as your nut slots can handle something a bit fatter.

I have actually used some excess wound string from a previous set as a file to CAREFULLY widen nut slots if they feel tight. You don't want them to get lower, just wider. Go very s-l-o-w. I normally attempt that and all set up adjustments on a new saddle blank to avoid ruining the one already there that [mostly] works. Ask me how I learned that??

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by Earl49

The best solution is to choose the string set and the tuning you most want to use, then have that guitar set up specifically with those in mind. It will probably then be off a bit in standard (or other) tunings, but dialed in better for Cm.

Or he could just buy one of the baritones that Emerald has in stock right now, with a nice custom set of strings from Newtone

[jaan]

This is why they sell a fanned fret option. It should solve all this. The answer is simple, buy another guitar!

[bcopeland8900]

Originally Posted by jaan

This is why they sell a fanned fret option. It should solve all this. The answer is simple, buy another guitar!

Coincidentally was already looking into that (prior to this issue cropping up). I am trying to learn as much as possible before pulling the trigger. Playing an alternate tuning brings a bit of physics into the equation that i just don't quite understand yet.

Great suggestion on the fan fret tho.
-B

[bcopeland8900]

Originally Posted by Earl49

Not quite. Heavier strings should help when tuning down, but ramping or intonating the saddle to compensate is the only real solution. It is a little unrealistic to expect a 12th fret harmonic and the fretted string to agree perfectly on an acoustic guitar when using an electronic tuner -- most fretted notes are a couple of "cents" or needle-widths off due to effects of bending the string. Is the difference something that you can actually hear or just display on the tuner?



An ideal string can theoretically be made to match, but strings are not ideal in the real world. Intonation on acoustics can be made pretty close but rarely perfect. On an electric guitar with six movable bridges the fretted and harmonic notes can be set to agree very closely, often done using a strobe light. But if you look in detail at one of those, you will end up with the same kind of stepped or offset footprint as an intonated acoustic saddle gives you - and often more offset than can be achieved on a fairly narrow acoustic saddle.



Each string has different core and winding thicknesses, so needs its own unique length between saddle and nut slot for "best" intonation. Most of us end up "sweetening" the tuning by adjusting the problem string a needle width or two flat, knowing it will be up to pitch when fretted. Errors are always more noticeable when sharp of the note than when slightly flat.



The best solution is to choose the string set and the tuning you most want to use, then have that guitar set up specifically with those in mind. It will probably then be off a bit in standard (or other) tunings, but dialed in better for Cm.





I have actually used some excess wound string from a previous set as a file to CAREFULLY widen nut slots if they feel tight. You don't want them to get lower, just wider. Go very s-l-o-w. I normally attempt that and all set up adjustments on a new saddle blank to avoid ruining the one already there that [mostly] works. Ask me how I learned that??

Thank you. I did actually hear it at Cm (and later verified it with a tuner). Tuning up to Dm makes it much less noticable and the guitar plays as though it is in tune and much more enjoyable.

-B

[Earl49]

The lower you tune, the more obvious any intonation issues will be. A few years ago I got enamored with baritones, but a medical condition now makes their 27+" scale lengths and heavy 70-16 strings a bit tough for my left hand. So I tried progressively heavier strings tuned down to make a "short scale" pseudo baritone on 25.5" necks. Guitars that were OK at E-e with light or medium gauge were still OK tuned D-d but became troublesome at C-c and unlistenable at B-b. I'm not surprised that tuning up to Dm helped.

The answer is still a custom set up to your preferred tuning and string gauge, when you can get to your luthier.