X-bracing, V-bracing and some 2am thoughts

[jkilgour2000]

Just saw this ad from Martin on the back of my AC mag that arrived in the mail. I thought - wow - shot fired across Taylor’s bow!

First off, I’m not bashing Taylor. I have several of their guitars and I love them. All X braces. I also have several Martin guitars. All of these guitars have their own merits, and are beautiful sounding in their own way!

However, I’ve been auditioning several Taylor 814’s recently - it’s the one final (ha!) guitar I want to add to my lineup - however all I can find in the shops is the new V braced models. I cannot find one that sounds “right”. I know I love the sound of the 814, because a couple of years ago I was trying them and I found a bunch that sounded amazing, but I didn’t buy at the time.

I think Taylor made a mistake here. For lack of a better word, it seems like something has been taken out of their guitars. I can’t put my finger on it. And it just occurred to me that possibly it’s the “V”.

Now, I’m no Andy Powers, but it seems to me like the bottom of the V being in the lower bout of the body is pinching off the bass. Possibly if this bracing were reversed, say an “A” brace, maybe there would be a different bass response.

Just an observation! IMG_9999.jpg

[ii Cybershot ii]

Having owned a v-class guitar for about a week now, it's an interesting instrument. Definitely a bit different than normal.

All of Taylor's claims aside, the main thing I've noticed about the tone is that it is very direct. It comes straight out of the sound hole like a laser beam and just shoots that direction. This makes the guitar sound "tight" and quiet to the one who is playing it, even though it can be heard by others quite loudly. I did sound meter tests and my v-class guitar was no quieter than my 714ce or 314ce which seem louder to me while playing.

I've found that an X-braced Taylor sounds more "3D" to the player. It radiates out and around the one playing the guitar. To me this makes for a somewhat more enjoyable experience in playing the guitar for myself at home for instance.

There are a lot of good things I could say about the v-class as well, like how the upper registers respond.

Edit:

Also to your comments about the 812 with v-class. I have yet to play one, but I can't imagine I'd like it more than the Advanced Performance bracing for that body shape. Those guitars were AWESOME for their size. Knowing how much less bass the v-class produces in all of the Grand Auditorium sized guitars I'm a little concerned for how the 812 might sound!

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by jkilgour2000

I think Taylor made a mistake here. For lack of a better word, it seems like something has been taken out of their guitars.

They call it "puff"

From Wood & Steel about the new Grand Pacific for which the V-bracing was originaly developped.

The “Puff of Air” ProblemOne problem area with the sound of a dreadnought guitar is in its low-end frequencies. Andy describes the issue as the “puff of air” a guitar produces alongside the low-frequency notes.“It’s that whoosh sound that hap-pens with a lot of large guitars,” he elaborates. “It’s the same air effect that happens when you say the letter P. microphone. When you say the letter P or B, an explosion of air rushes out. [To experience this effect firsthand, see our sidebar, “Feel the Puff.”] Guitars do the same thing, especially a bigger-body X-braced guitar with a broad waist like a dreadnought. When you play a big E major chord, you might think, that push of air feels cool — people describe it as the low end you feel but don’t hear. While it can be a gratifying experience in some respects for the player, it ends up creating problems sonically — you can’t mike it, you can’t amplify it, you can’t tune it, and when you play with other musicians, it gets in the way.”Typically in a recording environment an engineer will roll off those problem frequencies in the low end in an effort to tame the effect.“They might set up a mike and discover the problem right around 100, 110 hertz, and they’ll make that part disappear,” Andy says. “That part is interfering with all the notes you’re playing; it’s throwing off your intonation or stepping on the vocal part, causing feedback when you amplify it, or causing interference with the rest of the guitar’s response.

Traditional made guitars have a strong resonance around 100Hz.

If you check Bose spectral indentification
Bose Spectral identification

The frequencies that Taylor cut by design are:
woofy 31Hz octave deep bass
boomy 62 Hz octave bass
punchy 125 Hz octave mid bass

Bose calls it "Punch." Taylor makes guitar for band musicians, acoustic-electric players and fingerstyle players.

A guitar player playing strumming on his couch would enjoy the "Boom" and "Punch". It really depends on taste, how you use your guitar and what you expect from it.

I had a 414ce and although it was balanced... It lacked something. I understood that all the Taylor marketing I read the time I bought did not adress to me. I don't record. I don't play in a band. I seldom plug in... Give me back the Punch

[DownUpDave]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

They call it "puff"

From Wood & Steel about the new Grand Pacific for which the V-bracing was originaly developped.



Traditional made guitars have a strong resonance around 100Hz.

If you check Bose spectral indentification
Bose Spectral identification

The frequencies that Taylor cut by design are:
woofy 31Hz octave deep bass
boomy 62 Hz octave bass
punchy 125 Hz octave mid bass

Bose calls it "Punch." Taylor makes guitar for band musicians, acoustic-electric players and fingerstyle players.

A guitar player playing strumming on his couch would enjoy the "Boom" and "Punch". It really depends on taste, how you use your guitar and what you expect from it.

I had a 414ce and although it was balanced... It lacked something. I understood that all the Taylor marketing I read the time I bought did not adress to me. I don't record. I don't play in a band. I seldom plug in... Give me back the Punch

This describes the "different" sound I hear from a V braced Taylor as good or better then anything I have read. I played a 517 and I really missed that Boom and Punch.

[beninma]

Were you talking about the V-class 814?

I’ve been keeping my eye out for the xx2 grand concert guitars with v-bracing and have yet to see one at all.

My local dealer is one of the flagships that gets everything first and they haven’t seen one yet. (I went in Thursday)

I also visited Taylor a month ago before any Grand Pacific guitars had shipped, and they had all the GP models to play in their showroom but no V-class Grand Concert.

Just curious since you said you only see V-class GC models in your area.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

They call it "puff"

From Wood & Steel about the new Grand Pacific for which the V-bracing was originaly developped.



Traditional made guitars have a strong resonance around 100Hz.

If you check Bose spectral indentification
Bose Spectral identification

The frequencies that Taylor cut by design are:
woofy 31Hz octave deep bass
boomy 62 Hz octave bass
punchy 125 Hz octave mid bass

Bose calls it "Punch." Taylor makes guitar for band musicians, acoustic-electric players and fingerstyle players.

A guitar player playing strumming on his couch would enjoy the "Boom" and "Punch". It really depends on taste, how you use your guitar and what you expect from it.

I had a 414ce and although it was balanced... It lacked something. I understood that all the Taylor marketing I read the time I bought did not adress to me. I don't record. I don't play in a band. I seldom plug in... Give me back the Punch

I played a new V-braced 814. I think this "puff thing" explains a lot to me and why the 814 was a "fail" to my ears.
The question that keeps rolling round in my brain concerns technique.
Isn't it reasonable to expect that a skilled player could control some of this "puff" of his/her own accord? I'm not suggesting that it could be done completely but if good players can make a $200 guitar sound great, perhaps they can affect the amount of presence of frequency responses.
Anyway, I want "puff".

[arwhite]

All I know is after a month and a half of playing my new vclass 324ce this thing is sweet and is one of the most musical sounding guitars I have ever owned. It’s a hard one to put down.

[M19]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

Having owned a v-class guitar for about a week now, it's an interesting instrument. Definitely a bit different than normal.

All of Taylor's claims aside, the main thing I've noticed about the tone is that it is very direct. It comes straight out of the sound hole like a laser beam and just shoots that direction. This makes the guitar sound "tight" and quiet to the one who is playing it, even though it can be heard by others quite loudly. I did sound meter tests and my v-class guitar was no quieter than my 714ce or 314ce which seem louder to me while playing.

I've found that an X-braced Taylor sounds more "3D" to the player. It radiates out and around the one playing the guitar. To me this makes for a somewhat more enjoyable experience in playing the guitar for myself at home for instance.

There are a lot of good things I could say about the v-class as well, like how the upper registers respond.

Edit:

Also to your comments about the 812 with v-class. I have yet to play one, but I can't imagine I'd like it more than the Advanced Performance bracing for that body shape. Those guitars were AWESOME for their size. Knowing how much less bass the v-class produces in all of the Grand Auditorium sized guitars I'm a little concerned for how the 812 might sound!

Maybe Taylor needs to install a sound port?

[EverettWilliams]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

I played a new V-braced 814. I think this "puff thing" explains a lot to me and why the 814 was a "fail" to my ears.
The question that keeps rolling round in my brain concerns technique.
Isn't it reasonable to expect that a skilled player could control some of this "puff" of his/her own accord? I'm not suggesting that it could be done completely but if good players can make a $200 guitar sound great, perhaps they can affect the amount of presence of frequency responses.
Anyway, I want "puff".

A few thoughts:

First, very interesting with respect to “puff” and if the objective was to eliminate that, it’s pretty cool engineering. But I’m with you - I was unimpressed by the v braced guitars that I have tried - and this lack of “puff” may have been a part of it - they just felt a little dull and restrained. And I agree that technique can address the issue. My preference is to rerestrain a higher performance guitar rather than just push a guitar with a governor to its limit.

Second, while I’m not a Taylor guy and don’t suspect I will be, I appreciate the fact that they are trying to innovate. It’s a like how I feel about Ervin Somogyi and his acolytes, they’re trying to reinvent what a guitar can do. While I don’t really like the result and he compromises that it takes to get there, for the way some people play, they’ve built a better guitar. My tastes run towards tradition and it’s progeny. That’s not Taylor, that’s not Ervin, but I have no problem disliking the results while still respecting the effort. I remain open to and encouraging of innovation. I’m glad that there are people out there offering competing versions of what a guitar should be.

[EverettWilliams]

Originally Posted by M19

Maybe Taylor needs to install a sound port?

If they haven’t tested it, they should - this seems like a potentially good application of a soundport.

[ChalkLitIScream]

The real question is: is that top rosewood?
Probably redwood, but looks like rosewood though.

Just yesterday I went to my local guitar store and played a 414ce V class, and put it against some x braced models. The closest comparison I could find with the 414ce was with an x braced 714ce.
The 714ce blew it away. Had a much fuller sound and a nice bottom end.

The 714ce was from 2015(it was the redesigned ones with a Lutz top,) , so its had 4 years to mature. Is that a possible reason why the new Taylors all seem to be thon on the bottom end?

[boneuphtoner]

Originally Posted by arwhite

All I know is after a month and a half of playing my new vclass 324ce this thing is sweet and is one of the most musical sounding guitars I have ever owned. It’s a hard one to put down.

I agree with you 100% - nothing I’ve ever played is as sweet and smooth. But this is also a very modest beast in volume with the classical fingerstyle I like. Am looking to add to the stable, and right now the New GPs and GCs are in the running

[drplayer]

Taylor has too much invested in this now to turn back. Seems they found something they liked (either sonically, from a marketing standpoint, or both) and went “all in”. Time will tell how that works out for them, but I suspect that since the vast majority of players couldn’t care less about bracing patterns, that they’ll continue to do just fine. Better or worse? There will never be a consensus on this, so it’s really futile to discuss. V-bracing is just another bracing pattern, like X or ladder, or fan, etc. They all produce the desired result for the right player on the right guitar. How good it sounds, is and will always be, up to each individual player.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

They call it "puff"

From Wood & Steel about the new Grand Pacific for which the V-bracing was originaly developped.

Cuki -- Which issue of Wood & Steel talks about "puffs"? Thanks.

I wonder if they're talking about near field and far field effects, since near field effects occur within two wavelengths of a frequency, and will therefore extend further at low frequencies.

In the near field, there is a displacement of air (puff?). Once you get further out into the far field, sound is all compression/rarefaction with no net air displacement.

[DenverSteve]

Enough already about bracing. If you only buy guitars you love you will never be disappointed- regardless of specs. If you buy guitars because some designer, writer, magazine or blog tells you it's the next best thing - you've been duped. For whatever reason, I see/read many people here (generally the same ones) that flock to whatever the next-to-be-introduced product is as they "can't wait" to order one without ever touching one or even waiting for those who can get their hands on one to report back. Then, over the next few months, you see those same people selling their new purchase and moving on to the next "it" thing.