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  #16  
Old 02-11-2019, 02:36 AM
Nama Ensou Nama Ensou is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-ville Brent View Post
I've been using a Sure SM58A (Beta) for about 15 years...
Beginner singers need to avoid tight patterned super-cardioid mics. I guess I'll keep posting this every time someone else suggests either a super-cardioid or hyper-cardioid with their tight pickup patterns. LoL.

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For new mic users, I'd check out MF and other sites. They have several mics from different manufacturers in the $45 to $60 range that seem to have good reviews (I put some credence in customer reviews if there are more than a few for a product). That may be a place to start. I've used the Fender mics that came with my Passport, an EV CO9, and an Audio Technica M4000S. With many perhaps new users, a less expensive mic may by the way to get going.
Yes, definitely.
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  #17  
Old 02-17-2019, 02:37 AM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
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Hi again.

Thanks for the advice and comments. I'm new to audio and easily confused by practical details.

We did a hands on checkout of the audio systems in the new community centre building.

Next weekend we'll switch from my gear to the community centre stuff and see how it goes.


Here is info if you are interested in details.

1. Spaces:

The ground level has a 28' x110' space that can be partitioned into three areas. The upper floor has a number of rooms and lounges including a room with karaoke gear.


2. PA systems.

The PA is built into each space and delivered through large ceiling speakers. Each ground floor space has 6 speakers in a wide 2 x 3 grid.

Each space has an input panel (XLR, RCA, USB) and a volume control panel.

The sound volume at the 40 percent level is plenty loud enough.

The widely spaced ceiling speakers deliver 'surround sound' throughout the space.

The PA detects which partitions are open, and join the PAs in adjacent spaces for even sound and easy control.


3. Wireless microphone.

These are keyed to one of the ground floor spaces and to the upstairs room that has karaoke gear.

The key is a power pack that is stored in a slot in the room's electronics rack, and inserted into the wireless mic when needed.

4. Wired microphones.

Many thanks for all the info on suitable dynamic mikes.

The community centre has been using Sennheiser 835s in the older builder. They will buy more as needed.

Single mics plug into the XLR or RCA socket of the input panel.

Multiple mics plug into a generic mixer which plugs into the XLR. There is a generic 4 channel mixer and a generic 8 channel mixer.


Next step: Switch from my gear to the community centre stuff at our event next week.

Things to check:

. Will inexperienced users who are reluctant to get close to the microphone be heard from 10-14" away?

We'll increase the sensitivity by cranking up the gain/volume at the room volume control and/or the mixer preamp beyond the level usually recommended for loud stages and horizontal PAs/amps.

I'm guessing that the ceiling mounted PA speakers won't feedback as much as horizontal PAs/amps.

And singers will hear the sound level change depending on distance from the mic.


B. Will singers and speakers hear themselves drift off target and re-center themselves on the mic?

I'm hoping they'll hear themselves clearly in the PA 'surround sound' and notice when they wander off target.


Are we on the right track? We'll see.

And I'm looking forward to the reaction of folks hearing themselves sing through the 'surround sound' PA system!


Cheers.


.
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  #18  
Old 02-17-2019, 03:30 AM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
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Default Condenser microphones for untrained and uncoachable users

Last week bought a pair of inexpensive Apex 515 condenser mics to experiment with our amateur string band and our ukulele groups.

Now that understand what to look for (stage mic vs studio mic) I notice a variety of stage ready condenser mics from good brands for not much more money than good dynamic mics.

But I'm not ready to mention this to the community centre.


Was inspired by a local choir coach, ensemble leader, and community music organizer who gets wonderful results using a pair of AKG condenser mikes mounted on boom stands a few feet above and in front of performers.

Works great exactly per the textbook recommendation for miking choirs.

He tells singers and guitarists etc at his open mic events to ignore the mic and just sing and play normally.

And his six piece acoustic ensemble comes through loud and clear when they perform. The guitar, mandolin, double bass, etc can be heard distinctly playing together or solo. The soloing player plays a bit louder or moves a bit closer to the nearest mic.

.
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  #19  
Old 02-17-2019, 01:00 PM
Nama Ensou Nama Ensou is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casualmusic View Post
. Will inexperienced users who are reluctant to get close to the microphone be heard from 10-14" away?
This is the crux of why I keep insisting that any mic suggestion that has a tight pickup pattern is completely inappropriate, as they absolutely require close singing technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by casualmusic View Post
Last week bought a pair of inexpensive Apex 515 condenser mics to experiment with our amateur string band and our ukulele groups.

Was inspired by a local choir coach, ensemble leader, and community music organizer who gets wonderful results using a pair of AKG condenser mikes mounted on boom stands a few feet above and in front of performers.

Works great exactly per the textbook recommendation for miking choirs.

He tells singers and guitarists etc at his open mic events to ignore the mic and just sing and play normally.
Really looks like you may have found what you need. Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
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  #20  
Old 02-24-2019, 05:26 PM
nightchef nightchef is offline
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Having done a lot of SR with student groups over the past 10-15 years, I'm going to push back a bit on the notion that a tight pattern is always a problem for inexperienced singers. It can be, but it depends on a few factors:

1) Is it a solo singer or multiple singers on the same mic?
2) Are they playing an instrument at the same time?
3) Is the mic on a stand or handheld?

Solo singers, singing to a mic on a stand (and therefore controllably on-axis), will often do better with a tight pattern if they're unwilling to get up on the mic, because you're going to need to crank the gain a bit to compensate for the extra distance, and the tighter the pattern, the less extraneous ambient information you'll be amplifying along with the singer.

Where mics with tight patterns are definitely bad is (1) people who are singing and playing a guitar at the same time (this holds true for experienced singers as well, unless they're mic technique gods), (2) ensembles where multiple singers are on the same mic, and (3) inexperienced singers with handheld mics, who tend to gravitate to the "TV roving reporter" position with the mic held out in front of their chest, pointed straight up.
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  #21  
Old 02-25-2019, 10:21 AM
Nama Ensou Nama Ensou is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightchef View Post
...I'm going to push back a bit on the notion that a tight pattern is always a problem for inexperienced singers.
Having watched as shy singers took one of our extra mics with the same tight pickup pattern over the years and had trouble being heard until I just finally bought a standard cardioid specifically for guest singers, I stand by the conviction that a singer needs to not be scared of the mic to use and tight pattern mic.
I also always let people come up and sing with me and again, the friends of the shy ones will say they can't hear them, until I draw them into the mic.
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  #22  
Old 02-26-2019, 12:36 AM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
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Default Update: Making good use of the community centre equipment

Yesterday we held a ukulele singalong for 30 people.

The songleaders used a row of three dynamic mics plugged into a generic mixer box and then the PA system of 12 ceiling speakers.

We cranked up the gain/volume to compensate for singers not accustomed to microphones not wanting to get close enough to the mics.

We found a combination of gain and volume where the system did not feedback.


Results were good:

. Yes, singers 10-14" away from the mics were heard well enough.

Their voices sounded better and fuller at 8-10".

The ukuleles sounded good regardless of distance from mics.

B. No, singers not used to mics did not immediately notice the drop in volume as they drifted off centre.

Interestingly they must have heard themselves and adjusted subconciously because by mid-song they drifted back on centre and stayed on centre.


Quote:
Originally Posted by casualmusic View Post

Next step: Switch from my gear to the community centre stuff at our event next week.

Things to check:

. Will inexperienced users who are reluctant to get close to the microphone be heard from 10-14" away?

We'll increase the sensitivity by cranking up the gain/volume at the room volume control and/or the mixer preamp beyond the level usually recommended for loud stages and horizontal PAs/amps.

I'm guessing that the ceiling mounted PA speakers won't feedback as much as horizontal PAs/amps.

And singers will hear the sound level change depending on distance from the mic.


B. Will singers and speakers hear themselves drift off target and re-center themselves on the mic?

I'm hoping they'll hear themselves clearly in the PA 'surround sound' and notice when they wander off target.


Are we on the right track? We'll see.

And I'm looking forward to the reaction of folks hearing themselves sing through the 'surround sound' PA system'.

.

Thanks to all for the discussion that let us work out how to make the existing equipment work for shy singers.

I'm waiting for the next event to see how well my condensor mics will work compared to cranking up the dynamic mics.

Cheers.

.

Last edited by casualmusic; 02-26-2019 at 12:45 AM.
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  #23  
Old 02-26-2019, 12:58 AM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightchef View Post
,
and (3) inexperienced singers with handheld mics, who tend to gravitate to the "TV roving reporter" position with the mic held out in front of their chest, pointed straight up.
I've noticed that speakers at meetings do this all the time when speaking on the podium and contributing from the audience.
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  #24  
Old 02-26-2019, 01:55 AM
Nama Ensou Nama Ensou is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casualmusic View Post
I'm waiting for the next event to see how well my condenser mics will work compared to cranking up the dynamic mics.
Glad things seem to be working out and I'm looking forward to hearing how they go with your condensers.
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