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Old 11-22-2020, 12:06 PM
hyperplanes hyperplanes is offline
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Default Construction and tone (Martin 17 vs 18 questions!)

I'm mostly an electric player, so I'm somewhat uninformed when it comes to acoustics. I've been looking at small or medium sized acoustics, in particular Martin 00 and 000 models for around $1500. Looking at the lineup, the 000-17 just jumped out at me. Love the sunburst finish and lack of decoration. Looking at the next step up (above budget, used or new) I often hear the 000-18 being recommended. When people compare these two guitars, they say the 17 sounds "bluesy", "dry", and "fundamental", while the 18 is described as sounding "full" and with lots of sustain. I can get those differences. But looking at the spec sheet, what makes them sound this way?

They're both all solid spruce and mahogany guitars, have scalloped X-bracing, same neck carve, nut and bridge widths, and scale lengths. From what I can see, the differences are:

1. The 17 has a smaller CNC cut simple dovetail joint, the 18 has the traditional hand shaped dovetail.
2. The 17 has 5/16" braces, the 18 has 1/4" braces.
3. The 17 is "mahogany", while the 18 is "genuine mahogany". I see that Martin just classifies several woods into mahogany, so they might very well be different woods.
4. The 17 has a rosewood fretboard and straight cut bridge, the 18 uses ebony with a belly.
5. The 17 has a satin finish, the 18 is gloss.

So what makes them sound different?

Thanks for reading!
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  #2  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:12 PM
jklotz jklotz is offline
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Imho, the neck joint and braces account for most of the tonal differences between those models.
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:18 PM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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The Strings!!!

000-17 factory fitted with Monel Retro

000-18 factory fitted with Lifespan Phosphor Bronze

Just that small change would give the tone difference you describe.

(it does seem quite a price jump for a string upgrade!!!!!!)
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:34 PM
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The 000-18 will have Honduran mahogany. The 000-17 will have Sipo or sapele. In Martin-speak that’s the difference between “Genuine Mahogany” and “mahogany.”
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:42 PM
pagedr pagedr is offline
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Definitely the bracing and dovetail. Also the 17s just feel much more lightly built which helps to give them that unique sound. Not sure if the woods on that series are thinner or something else, but if you hold one in each hand, the 17s are a bit lighter than the 18s.
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:44 PM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev Roy View Post
The 000-18 will have Honduran mahogany. The 000-17 will have Sipo or sapele. In Martin-speak that’s the difference between “Genuine Mahogany” and “mahogany.”
I don't think it will be sapele on the 000-17. Martin declare if that wood is used. It is more likely to be khaya from Africa or Madagascar (African Mahogany), which is the most used substitute, and the closest. The "Honduran Mahogany" of the 000-18 is listed as "Genuine Mahogany" by Martin which I expect comes from Asian plantations (same species re-planted) rather than Central America.
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:49 PM
zmf zmf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jklotz View Post
Imho, the neck joint and braces account for most of the tonal differences between those models.
Neck joints. The reoccurring topic. I trying to recall attempts to settle this question. I'm sure it's been posted, but I'm coming up blank at the moment.

Suppose someone decided to build two D-18's, as identical as possible (which is a big caveat), but one with a traditional dovetail joint and another with a simple dovetail. Wonder what the tonal difference would be.
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Old 11-22-2020, 02:45 PM
Martin_F Martin_F is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmf View Post
Neck joints. The reoccurring topic. I trying to recall attempts to settle this question. I'm sure it's been posted, but I'm coming up blank at the moment.

Suppose someone decided to build two D-18's, as identical as possible (which is a big caveat), but one with a traditional dovetail joint and another with a simple dovetail. Wonder what the tonal difference would be.
My guess is that there would no real difference in the two. At least, no bigger difference than you normally get between two guitars. Even in the dovetail guitars, the joint isn’t always that great. The CNC cut simple dovetail is likely just as strong and efficient at transmitting vibrations. The 15 series is good proof of this. The difference in the traditional dovetail guitars in the current Martin lineup is that the build materials are likely better (genuine mahogany), so they turn out to be better thought of guitars.

My opinion...

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Old 11-22-2020, 03:21 PM
zoopeda zoopeda is offline
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EDIT: I stand corrected, was notified 17 series now uses standard X bracing...

Bracing differences on Martin’s site here: https://www.martinguitar.com/feature...cing-patterns/

Last edited by zoopeda; 11-23-2020 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 11-22-2020, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoopeda View Post
The BIGGEST difference that’s not getting much attention here is not jut bracing width but BRACING DESIGN. The 18s get Martin’s traditional scalloped x bracing (with complex dovetail neck joint) but the 17s get the newer Hybrid X bracing (that hooks into their simple dovetail) which is quite different. Look at the photo below, specifically upper bout, depth of scalloping, finger braces, and bridge plate size. That’s the biggest tonal factor.
I was actually recently corrected on this. Buck over at the UMGF let me know that on the 17 series redesign that they have now started using standard X scalloped bracing just like the standard series. So the only difference on the 17's is the neck join (and of course other cosmetic construction choices). The 16 series and below use the hybrid X or A frame pattern.

This is what he shared with me:

Quote:
The Simple Dovetail is a straight rather than compound dovetail. Part of the appeal is that the neck can be fitted completely by CNC. That's a big time saver for Martin. However, it is actually more difficult to disassemble and refit during a neck set. I know a couple of repairmen who simply refuse to work on them. Others tell me they are more work, but not so much that they make a big deal over it. Regardless, it's not easier which the word "simple" might suggest.

Also, the 17 Series started pairing the Simple Dovetail with Standard Series bracing in 2016. I heard this rumor and went to a shop to look inside them for myself. Sure enough, it was a traditional X-bracing layout with no A-Frame in the upper bout.

I was surprised too when I first read about the 2016 change on the 17 Series. That's when they discontinued all the existing 17's and introduced the Whiskey Sunset and similar guitars. It was about then that Martin took detailed spec information off their website too. I couldn't confirm what the bracing actually was until I went and looked with my own mirror.

Last edited by UncleJesse; 11-22-2020 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 11-22-2020, 03:54 PM
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blindboyjimi blindboyjimi is offline
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I’m a long time Martin player and collector and I simply don’t believe the neck joint matters. That’s just my opinion. The newest 000-17 and 000-18 differ mainly cosmetically. The wood grades are all visual not tonal. I’m sure the variations between 3 000-18s would not be any different if you played two 000-18 with a 000-17. In my opinion, the best guitar for the money is a used 000-18GE, but if you’re coming from electric you may prefer the thinner neck and saddle spacing on the newer “re-imagined” ones.

Finally, make sure you understand MSRP, MAP, and that our sponsors will sell you a new Martin at 40% off MSRP. That will narrow the price difference a bit.
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Old 11-22-2020, 04:19 PM
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Rev Roy Rev Roy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindboyjimi View Post
I’m a long time Martin player and collector and I simply don’t believe the neck joint matters. That’s just my opinion. The newest 000-17 and 000-18 differ mainly cosmetically. The wood grades are all visual not tonal. I’m sure the variations between 3 000-18s would not be any different if you played two 000-18 with a 000-17. In my opinion, the best guitar for the money is a used 000-18GE, but if you’re coming from electric you may prefer the thinner neck and saddle spacing on the newer “re-imagined” ones.

Finally, make sure you understand MSRP, MAP, and that our sponsors will sell you a new Martin at 40% off MSRP. That will narrow the price difference a bit.
Or at least they did before COVID hit. Some have had to back off on that a bit until inventory builds back up. They are still likely to offer you the best deal...
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  #13  
Old 11-22-2020, 04:34 PM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindboyjimi View Post
I’m a long time Martin player and collector and I simply don’t believe the neck joint matters. That’s just my opinion. The newest 000-17 and 000-18 differ mainly cosmetically. The wood grades are all visual not tonal. I’m sure the variations between 3 000-18s would not be any different if you played two 000-18 with a 000-17. In my opinion, the best guitar for the money is a used 000-18GE, but if you’re coming from electric you may prefer the thinner neck and saddle spacing on the newer “re-imagined” ones.

Finally, make sure you understand MSRP, MAP, and that our sponsors will sell you a new Martin at 40% off MSRP. That will narrow the price difference a bit.
Like I said earlier (albeit a bit tongue in cheek), if a punter picks up a 000-17 and a 000-18 to try in a shop a good chunk of the tone difference would be in the factory fitted strings (monel v PBs). And those first impressions will linger.
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  #14  
Old 11-23-2020, 12:53 PM
zoopeda zoopeda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleJesse View Post
I was actually recently corrected on this. Buck over at the UMGF let me know that on the 17 series redesign that they have now started using standard X scalloped bracing just like the standard series. So the only difference on the 17's is the neck join (and of course other cosmetic construction choices). The 16 series and below use the hybrid X or A frame pattern.

This is what he shared with me:
Wow, thanks for sharing! Martin never used to combine anything but compound dovetail with their standard X bracing. Good to know. For whatever reason, they do seem to sound different. I do think the super thin finish might have something to do with that. And the big slope shape of the D-17 changes its sound vs the D-18 for sure.
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Old 11-23-2020, 01:16 PM
bufflehead bufflehead is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoopeda View Post
For whatever reason, they do seem to sound different. I do think the super thin finish might have something to do with that.
For what it's worth, I think the finish makes more of a difference than the type of neck joint.
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