Changed the bridge pins on my Farida: big difference!

[Denny B]

If you change the bridge pins in your guitar and your ears hear an improvement that you like, all the Kings Horses and all the King's men can't prove that you don't hear an improvement that you like after changing bridge pins...

They can dispute it, discuss it, cuss it, fuss it, and wallow it around all day long, but they can't prove that your ears didn't hear an improvement that you liked after changing bridge pins...

[beatcomber]

Originally Posted by Denny B

If you change the bridge pins in your guitar and your ears hear an improvement that you like, all the Kings Horses and all the King's men can't prove that you don't hear an improvement that you like after changing bridge pins...

They can dispute it, discuss it, cuss it, fuss it, and wallow it around all day long, but they can't prove that your ears didn't hear an improvement that you liked after changing bridge pins...

Quite correct. It concerns me not if some think I’m full of baloney.

[CylinderBear]

I change the bridge pins and now I can play Stairway to Heaven exactly like LZ, no joke!

[Russ C]

I've always liked the to and fro of bridge pin threads but I think all the fro has been said and it's now time to feel good for those who are getting positives from what is harmless and affordable mod to their guitars. Enjoy!

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by dgt178

...I'm a skeptic of your spelling of skeptic....

That's where British English and American English differ. 'humour' vs. 'humor', etc.

[beatcomber]

Originally Posted by Russ C

I've always liked the to and fro of bridge pin threads but I think all the fro has been said and it's now time to feel good for those who are getting positives from what is harmless and affordable mod to their guitars. Enjoy!

Thank you, Russ C.

It's fine to not share my conviction, but I'd certainly appreciate it if the naysayers and sceptic skeptics would refrain from making wiseacre remarks, it's a little insulting and contributes nothing to the discussion.

It's entirely possible that the effect of changing the pins on some instruments is not as pronounced as on other instruments, or perhaps the stock plastic pins on my budget-priced Farida might not be of the same quality as the plastic pins that, say, Martin provides with their guitars. That seems like a reasonable explanation why some hear a difference with different pins while others do not.

I am also a hifi enthusiast, and I know that anything that affects resonance can impact the sound. For example, I used to have a Thorens TD-124 turntable with a wooden armboard (for mounting the tonearm to), and the sound produced by using boards of birch, slate or plywood produced audibly different results.

[beatcomber]

Here's some food for thought...

The strings that are on my Farida are Martin Retro monels, which were maybe 2 weeks old. These strings are known for being bright/metallic when new, gradually warming up as they become broken in.

Could it be that the act of loosening and re-tensioning the strings sped up the break-in process, hence the warmer, fuller tone that I got after swapping the pins? Well, that could be part of it, but consider this... The D'Addario PB strings that came with the guitar also had the same thin character and slightly strident top-end that was bugging me. (I am very sensitive about brightness.)

I supposed I could swap the plastic pins back in to be sure, but I'd rather just be happy with what I'm hearing now...

[dgt178]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

That's where British English and American English differ. 'humour' vs. 'humor', etc.

.....LOL....it's all good....technically then, it is we Americans that are spelling it wrong....cheers.....

[Paddy1951]

This bridge pin argument could go on forever.

So, why don't we agree that it may be possible that on some guitars there could be a change if the pins are swapped out.

You may never have experienced a change.

Or maybe you have.

For the record, I do think pin material can make a difference. I have swapped out pins on a number of guitars.

African Blackwood pins on my OT 22.

But even if I knew with certainty that changing pins makes absolutely no difference on any guitar, I would still do it because the standard plastic pins don't wear as well and often look cheap.

[mercy]

I have good hearing and I hear a difference from ebony pins. I also hear a difference with brass. I prefer plastic as they seem more neutral. Whether you think it is an improvement is a personal opinion but the change is a fact.

[lowrider]

Originally Posted by mercy

I have good hearing and I hear a difference from ebony pins. I also hear a difference with brass. I prefer plastic as they seem more neutral. Whether you think it is an improvement is a personal opinion but the change is a fact.

This is exactly it. You might not like the change, but with most guitars, there will usually be an effect on tone from a different material pin.

Whether or not you like it, it's a cheap experiment to see if you hear a change. It seems that the nay-sayers just want to think it can't happen so they don't want to try it. Then because it can't happen, they don't want to believe it when someone else says that it changed the tone of their guitar, no matter how small the change. Then if someone post sound files, they say that the poster doesn't the scientific method, so the change in tone, that they can now hear, is invalid because of whatever they can think of

I've tried it on a few guitars and the biggest change is on my GCPX, changing from plastic to ebony really had a nice mellowing effect that I like.

You know what they say; nay-sayers got to nay-say!

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Russ C

I've always liked the to and fro of bridge pin threads but I think all the fro has been said and it's now time to feel good for those who are getting positives from what is harmless and affordable mod to their guitars. Enjoy!

Yeah. I can't think of anymore tos and fros left to discuss.

It's come down to "I heard a change" VS "There was no change, so that's impossible".

I'm still curious about an underlying mechanism. But it doesn't seem like that will be resolved anytime soon.

[beatcomber]

Originally Posted by mercy

I prefer plastic as they seem more neutral.

That's an interesting comment. Do you also prefer a plastic nut and saddle?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand what you mean.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by harpon

I'm still curious about an underlying mechanism. But it doesn't seem like that will be resolved anytime soon.

That, too, has been discussed in detail.

The variables involved are mass of pin material, sound quality/transference of the pin material and fit of pins. Of those, I expect the mass to matter the most.

As also previously discussed, it is an easy non-destructive, reversible experiment to increase the mass of the bridge assembly by adding putty to it, such as used to tac notes to boards. Doing so removes as a potential variable, the result of cycling of string tension - tuning up and down - since the mass can be changed without altering the string tension.

If it is found that the tone - however one wants to define that - has changed as a result of changing mass, one could then weigh several different sets of pins and examine the result of putting putty of that mass on the bridge vs. actually installing the pins of the same mass. Is there a difference between the tone of the same-mass putty versus the pins themselves? That would provide insight as to whether or not it is simply the difference in pin weight that produces the perceived change in tone.

If one wanted to be more rigorous, record and analyze frequency response, decay, harmonic content, etc. for the same experiment above. Then it becomes objective results, rather than subjective.

It is knowable, if someone cares enough to do the work. Until then, it is subjective opinion. Lots of aspects of life are subjective opinion (aka "belief"). I have no issue with people holding subjective opinions until they start stating that their subjective opinions are objective "facts".

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by beatcomber

...Could it be that the act of loosening and re-tensioning the strings sped up the break-in process, hence the warmer, fuller tone that I got after swapping the pins? Well, that could be part of it, but consider this... The D'Addario PB strings that came with the guitar also had the same thin character and slightly strident top-end that was bugging me. (I am very sensitive about brightness.)

I supposed I could swap the plastic pins back in to be sure, but I'd rather just be happy with what I'm hearing now...

The sound of the strings are in continual flux, but in such small increments that we don't recognize it until it gets to a certain point. This plays into the question that I posed a week or two ago; Tone vs Character. For the most part a guitar's "tone" isn't going to shift all that much, but the character of it- the way it present's the notes and overtones does shift. Hence the "character" of a guitar. The overtones and harmonics don't recede over time in a uniform fashion. An extreme example of that would be a single string that goes dead before the others in the set. Did the tone of the guitar really change? I don't think so... but I'm sure the character of the instrument did.

The reason I brought that up is because once you understand how bridge pins and various pin materials work you can use that knowledge to help keep the set's character in balance longer. I've written volumes on this, so I won't go into it again.

The way I see it, the information is out there for folks to try or not. But the nonsense that sometimes pervades the forum isn't different than the rest of some folks in the world today behave, standing intransigently, where wrong is right and right is ridiculed.