For those who think the bridgepin thing is nonsense...

[Shades of Blue]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

You could have reasoned that my lap times would be 10% faster, but they weren't. Eventually my lap times improved, but it had almost nothing to do with the weight reduction and everything to do with my driving.

And so it goes with guitars.

I'd imagine that the weight you lost affected how much more you had to adjust or brake on each turn. Like you said, you had to adapt your driving to account for the lost weight. In a drag race, I bet you would have been faster.

I'm not a car guy, just making a WAG.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by nickv6

"You should be hearing more even presence of all the open strings after the African Blackwood pin was substituted in. Let me know what you think. "

This is the bit that I don't follow. Why would everything sound better after changing one pin? Doesn't that hint towards a bias happening?

Great question Nick. You've actually asked two questions in one, so I'll answer them both.

Metphorically... You go to the barber to get a haircut. At the shop, from a distance it appears to be a great job. But you get home, look in the mirror and see a few individual hairs sticking out. You could go back to the barber and say "Hey, you did a bad job- give me a different hair cut". Or, you could ignore it and let it be as is.... Or... You could just take a scissors and clip off the few stray hairs, assuming you can see all the ones that stick out and assuming you have a scissors and have steady hands.

A guitar with six strings is similar to an ensemble with six players. They have to become a singular unit comprised of six. No "individual hairs" sticking out. None of the strings should stick out in terms of volume or timbre. In my example, the D string was the outlier in both volume and timbre. If you didn't hear it the first time, put on a good headset and listen very, very carefully, paying particular attention to the even-ness of the sounds across each string (or lack thereof).

As a musician, I want the music to be the featured element; the message. The instrument is only the vehicle to deliver the message. Of course one can compensate for anomalies in sound with technique, but that one shouldn't have to do that. A sound that isn't contiguous across all notes is distracting anddisruptive to the musical message. Obviously I have employed a metaphrorical exaggeration, but you get what I'm saying.

The second part of the question is related to the strings relating to each other. The strings are all interdependent on one another. If you want to test what I'm saying try putting a medium gauge set of strings on your guitar. Play it for a bit. Then swap in a light gauge low E (only the low E). You WILL hear a difference in the entire instrument, not just the change of sound in the low E alone. Each string sets of a chain off harmonics that result in sympathetic vibrations perceived as "resultant harmonics". You will find that the lower strings have more impact on the harmonics because the way the overtones form and project.

FWIW I know Power Pins. I've tested them for Big Rock Innovations and recreated their installation instructions for them. They have the potential to be transformative on some guitars. However, while possible, it would be difficult to change individual pins within this set.

[Aaron Smith]

Even at the drag strip, there's a million human factors. Reaction time, traction limit, shift timing, etc. I guess my point was that the human factors will always outweigh the physical aspects. Even when the physics dictate a clear advantage (which is not the case with different bridge pin material), changing a guitar only makes it "better" if it makes you play it "better".

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

Unrelated story: I race cars at the track. Race car guys go to elaborate measures to remove weight from their cars; take out extra bolts, wiring, carpet, soundproofing, glass, etc. The physical advantages of weight reduction are profound, irrefutable and well-understood.

When you start learning to drive on the track, you ride with an instructor in your passenger seat. I got better and did a "check ride" in the middle of a track day, and didn't need an instructor any more. My car immediately lost 200 lbs, almost 10% of the total vehicle weight. The next three sessions I drove as fast as I could, yet my lap times were worse. You could have reasoned that my lap times would be 10% faster, but they weren't. Eventually my lap times improved, but it had almost nothing to do with the weight reduction and everything to do with my driving.

We're derailing the thread, but I do the same. Amazing how 200 lbs providing useful information can improve lap times.

As I'm gradually learning, trying to "drive as fast as you can" is a sure way to get slower lap times.

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by zmf

We're derailing the thread, but I do the same. Amazing how 200 lbs providing useful information can improve lap times.

As I'm gradually learning, trying to "drive as fast as you can" is a sure way to get slower lap times.

Indeed. One of my instructors said "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast". That always stuck with me, with cars and everything else.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

Even at the drag strip, there's a million human factors. Reaction time, traction limit, shift timing, etc. I guess my point was that the human factors will always outweigh the physical aspects. Even when the physics dictate a clear advantage (which is not the case with different bridge pin material), changing a guitar only makes it "better" if it makes you play it "better".

Oooo... I love metaphors!

While many players can't appreciate the differences in nuance either from a performance or hearing standpoint. This really isn't for them. But to cite your metaphor, a really skilled driver would benefit from having a rocket finely tuned with perfect timing, and optimal fuel blend and the right tires du jour to give the driver and car the best chance of winning. But as the old adage goes- "It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it".

[Steadfastly]

I prefer motorcycles over cars.

[hbg]

I did hear a difference in the recordings. In the initial ones, the d sounded "tinny" and annoying. It sounded richer and more like the other strings in the second set.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by hbg

I did hear a difference in the recordings. In the initial ones, the d sounded "tinny" and annoying. It sounded richer and more like the other strings in the second set.

EXACTLY! Give this man a cigar.

Why was this so difficult for people to grasp?????

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Oooo... I love metaphors!

While many players can't appreciate the differences in nuance either from a performance or hearing standpoint. This really isn't for them. But to cite your metaphor, a really skilled driver would benefit from having a rocket finely tuned with perfect timing, and optimal fuel blend and the right tires du jour to give the driver and car the best chance of winning. But as the old adage goes- "It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it".

I can't really argue against your point. Like I said earlier, anything you change on a guitar will conceivably make a difference to tone. In doing so, you have two separate questions to answer about that change:
- meaningful/ not meaningful
- better/ not better

Whether the change is meaningful or better is up to each player. Throw a mountain of marketing blather and a healthy dose of confirmation bias into the mix, and there will never be an objective answer to the question. In the OP recording, I hear no difference whatsoever. And I -should- have heard an improvement, because you already told us that there was supposed to be one. In fact, all of these different biases are at play in this thread:

- confirmation bias
- groupthink bias
- anchoring bias
- selection bias
- observer expectancy bias

In short, if you think bridge pins make a difference and they make you happy, then buy them. If you don't think they make a difference, then don't. There is no objective truth on this matter.

[michaelnel]

Sometimes just releasing tension on a string and removing and replacing the bridge pins with the same ones that were in there will make it sound different. Each time, the bridge pin and string will seat a little differently.

[Odie1974]

It's the first time I ever heard of pin swapping to change the tone, so I do not think I was biased one way or the other
In the samples provided I could hear the before / after difference. I have a good soundcard and headset though so that may help.

I would never notice it if listening casually though...

[joeld]

The difference in volume of the D string was plain to hear for me. I wouldn't think a golden ear is required to hear it.

I'd have to try for myself to be convinced that the difference came from swapping bridge pins. But now I'm a bit motivated to do the experiment.

[Monsoon1]

every single string on an acoustic, pulls the exact same bridge with the exact same weight/resistance.
changing one pin can possibly change the weight of the motor mechanism, yes, but it would change that motor weight for all 6 strings.
so unless as has been mentioned, the old pin didn't seat well in the bridge hole, changing one pin would not change the sound of only that string.

[drbluegrass]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

Objectively, bridge pins make a difference. So does temperature, humidity, room acoustics, the angle of your pick attack, how much sleep you've had, what you were listening to 10 minutes earlier, etc. The question is whether any of these things rise above the threshold of our perceptive limits and cognitive biases.

Unrelated story: I race cars at the track. Race car guys go to elaborate measures to remove weight from their cars; take out extra bolts, wiring, carpet, soundproofing, glass, etc. The physical advantages of weight reduction are profound, irrefutable and well-understood.

When you start learning to drive on the track, you ride with an instructor in your passenger seat. I got better and did a "check ride" in the middle of a track day, and didn't need an instructor any more. My car immediately lost 200 lbs, almost 10% of the total vehicle weight. The next three sessions I drove as fast as I could, yet my lap times were worse. You could have reasoned that my lap times would be 10% faster, but they weren't. Eventually my lap times improved, but it had almost nothing to do with the weight reduction and everything to do with my driving.

And so it goes with guitars.

So, you're saying if I lose weight I'll be able to play faster? I'll do it!!!