The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-25-2023, 02:19 PM
tdlwhite tdlwhite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 268
Default Flatpicking practising, how slow to dial back for 'good learnin'?

I'm still working on my flatpicking, and I'm still using Carl Miner tunes to help me along my journey (thanks Carl). I'm trying to work a tune up to speed that I've been working on for a few months, it's his TNAG demo of a 1954 00-18, and I thought I'd try recording it at various tempos to watch back.

Note that I didn't record the full tune, I just took all the different parts, condensed them together and played 'em. (to save time/effort in recording). Here's the outcome:



And here's the question: if you were trying to get this up to speed (125bpm), what tempo would you spend your (precious) practise time playing it at? I reckon I mostly play it around 100bpm, and work on parts at that tempo, then push it up to 'fall apart' speed, then back again.

As always, I'm grateful for any AGF insights and comments to help me along my path!

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-25-2023, 06:14 PM
Brent Hutto's Avatar
Brent Hutto Brent Hutto is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,276
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdlwhite View Post
I'm still working on my flatpicking, and I'm still using Carl Miner tunes to help me along my journey (thanks Carl). I'm trying to work a tune up to speed that I've been working on for a few months, it's his TNAG demo of a 1954 00-18, and I thought I'd try recording it at various tempos to watch back.

Note that I didn't record the full tune, I just took all the different parts, condensed them together and played 'em. (to save time/effort in recording). Here's the outcome:



And here's the question: if you were trying to get this up to speed (125bpm), what tempo would you spend your (precious) practise time playing it at? I reckon I mostly play it around 100bpm, and work on parts at that tempo, then push it up to 'fall apart' speed, then back again.

As always, I'm grateful for any AGF insights and comments to help me along my path!

Tom
Even at 80bpm the tune was starting to sound like itself and at 90bpm you had a nice flow going. Honestly, if I could play it as cleanly as you did at 100bpm I'd probably play it that speed and move on to a new tune.

But that's just me. I like slow tunes, myself.
__________________
Grabbed his jacket
Put on his walking shoes
Last seen, six feet under
Singing the I've Wasted My Whole Life Blues
---Warren Malone "Whole Life Blues"
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-26-2023, 06:58 AM
cdkrugjr cdkrugjr is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 631
Default

My approach:
  1. Start at a tempo I KNOW I can play clean
  2. Bump the tempo one “metronome notch”, or just till it feels a bit faster if your app doesn’t have notches
  3. Keep going until you can’t go faster
  4. Then back off until it’s clean again

I might note “104+” which means play at 104, 108, 112. I Usually limit myself to three repeats, but yesterday I was refreshing on 2nd position scales, so took much more time on it
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-26-2023, 07:26 AM
mawmow mawmow is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Quebec city, Qc, Canada
Posts: 2,690
Default

I was instructed to never get faster until I play the tune cleanly :
Increasing the speed while mistakes still appear is the key to
make more mistakes since the previous ones will stick and
speeding up is a call for others.
__________________
Needed some nylons, a wide range of acoustics and some weirdos to be happy...
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-26-2023, 10:10 AM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,829
Default

Ok, I play fingerstyle. but we use the same technique to learn things. I can't give a definitive answer, but whatever speed is right before the speed that you know you going to mess up a harder part. It's screwing up the harder parts that stops us from finishing a tune, so those are the parts that have to be done slower, without the mistakes. It doesn't matter what relative speed it is to the final product. It's not going right, so slow it down until it does go right and then bring it up over time.
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-27-2023, 01:29 PM
Woolbury Woolbury is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Evergreen,CO
Posts: 619
Default

Dude, thanks for doing this. Obviously, the way you're going about this is the tried and true method, and the progress you've made with this tune shows it. But I think the question you ask is good one. I saw an interview with Molly Tuttle once, and she encouraged folks to play at full speed at times even if it falls apart, to learn the feeling of where you want to go. I'm a skier, and I often make the comparison to guitar playing. We master easy terrain, our technique is great on that terrain, but at some point you have to introduce yourself to the harder terrain where the technique falls apart. I wouldn't spend the whole day there, or all of your practice time, but occasionally introducing that fast paced challenge into the playing is a necessary component.

And I couldn't help but notice the different facial expression you have as you hit the higher pace. Looked like you were about to go off a cliff! Nce job with this! And Carl Minor is the man!
__________________
'19 Waterloo WL-14X
'46 Gibson LG2
'59 Gibson ES125T
'95 Collings 0002H
'80s Martin M36
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-27-2023, 02:47 PM
tdlwhite tdlwhite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 268
Default

As always, thanks for the replies!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post
Honestly, if I could play it as cleanly as you did at 100bpm I'd probably play it that speed and move on to a new tune.
Thanks! I do like it at the 'slower' speeds, but I just wonder how to focus my practise to push that tempo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdkrugjr View Post
My approach:
...
  • Then back off until it’s clean again
I Usually limit myself to three repeats, but yesterday I was refreshing on 2nd position scales, so took much more time on it
Yeah, I find I do a similar thing, pushing and backing off. Glad you mentioned scales, because when I practise them I often stay in my comfort zone the whole time without pushing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mawmow View Post
I was instructed to never get faster until I play the tune cleanly...
Yes - and I can play this cleanly at lower and mid tempos. And *sometimes* I can play it clean(ish!) at higher speeds. I'm just trying to work out where to spend my time on it -- I could stay slow, but I can play it slow. But I could stay really slow until I can play it clean 5 times in a row with no mistakes. There's so many options!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
...whatever speed is right before the speed that you know you going to mess up a harder part.
...It's not going right, so slow it down until it does go right and then bring it up over time.
I think this is what I end up doing a bunch of the time. But I wonder, better to just play that harder part over and over and over?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolbury View Post
Dude, thanks for doing this. ...

... I saw an interview with Molly Tuttle once, and she encouraged folks to play at full speed at times even if it falls apart, to learn the feeling of where you want to go. I'm a skier...

And I couldn't help but notice the different facial expression you have as you hit the higher pace. Looked like you were about to go off a cliff! Nce job with this! And Carl Minor is the man!
Thanks! Yes - pushing and pushing seems to help to identify parts that I don't know quite as well, or maybe the parts that are not quite muscle-memory, or the parts that ARE muscle-memory, but *ineffecient*.

The sport reference is one I always like - loadsa ways you can put the idea that practicing a move/technique in isolation doesn't translate into being able to do it for real.

And you're right about the effort, pushing the tempo is hard work for me!

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-27-2023, 04:47 PM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,829
Default

Try to play the trouble spots much more than the rest of the tune once you get the general flow going.
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-28-2023, 04:42 AM
Italuke Italuke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,132
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolbury View Post
Dude, thanks for doing this. Obviously, the way you're going about this is the tried and true method, and the progress you've made with this tune shows it. But I think the question you ask is good one. I saw an interview with Molly Tuttle once, and she encouraged folks to play at full speed at times even if it falls apart, to learn the feeling of where you want to go. I'm a skier, and I often make the comparison to guitar playing. We master easy terrain, our technique is great on that terrain, but at some point you have to introduce yourself to the harder terrain where the technique falls apart. I wouldn't spend the whole day there, or all of your practice time, but occasionally introducing that fast paced challenge into the playing is a necessary component.

And I couldn't help but notice the different facial expression you have as you hit the higher pace. Looked like you were about to go off a cliff! Nce job with this! And Carl Minor is the man!
Yes! This is the other side of the coin for this issue. I'd like to hear more of people's thoughts on going fast also, specifically with right hand flatpicking technique. To me the "slow then gradually speed up" approach falls apart because it's easy to, subconsciously perhaps, "cheat" at slow tempos because the mechanics required are different than at fast. Maybe it's just a matter of degree of fast vs. slow.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-31-2023, 04:43 PM
fantex fantex is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2023
Location: Hutto, Texas
Posts: 63
Default

Great work so far. I assume you've seen this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMGwH5As72g

Last edited by fantex; 03-31-2023 at 04:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-31-2023, 05:28 PM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Eryri, Wales
Posts: 4,562
Default



Adding another sports metaphor: If you want to telemark ski powder then you can't hold back. It is all about charging the rhythm or it just doesn't work. As I found out last week LOL!!!

I'm trying to get a small section of cross-picking wired in a song, and the difference in feel between playing it slow and firing it off at speed is night and day. "Fast" is not slow speeded up - it is physically something very different. So I would fall into the Molly Tuttle camp of trying it up to speed to get the feel as well as breaking it down slow to get the pattern.

Great playing BTW, far more advanced than anything I play. It must be taking loads of work!
__________________
I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs.

I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.




Last edited by Robin, Wales; 04-01-2023 at 02:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-02-2023, 04:19 AM
Andyrondack Andyrondack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Albion
Posts: 1,220
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Italuke View Post
Yes! This is the other side of the coin for this issue. I'd like to hear more of people's thoughts on going fast also, specifically with right hand flatpicking technique. To me the "slow then gradually speed up" approach falls apart because it's easy to, subconsciously perhaps, "cheat" at slow tempos because the mechanics required are different than at fast. Maybe it's just a matter of degree of fast vs. slow.
What you seem to mean is that players can get away with poor technique when playing at moderate speeds but when the velocity picks up the wheels fall off.
Yes if you want to play at the limits of your personal technical limit then you need to think about whether or not your using the most efficient fingering possible and dial that fingering into the memory at a slow speed.

But even when using the most efficient fingering I have realised this play slow and gradually speed up on it's own doesn't quite get me to the kind of speed I am trying to attain.
Neurologists inform us that this is because our conscious brains are not built for speed and if we want to perform a series of highly controlled physical movements as fast as possible
then we need to relax , stop paying so much attention to what the hands are doing and leave the subconscious memory to take control of our movements.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-02-2023, 05:01 AM
marciero marciero is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 380
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
"Fast" is not slow speeded up - it is physically something very different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyrondack View Post
But even when using the most efficient fingering I have realised this play slow and gradually speed up on it's own doesn't quite get me to the kind of speed I am trying to attain.
Neurologists inform us that this is because our conscious brains are not built for speed and if we want to perform a series of highly controlled physical movements as fast as possible
then we need to relax , stop paying so much attention to what the hands are doing and leave the subconscious memory to take control of our movements.
This and this. There is something that happens at fast tempos that does not at slower ones. Its mental-grasping the entirety of a passage as a whole rather than parts-but obviously physical too. Its often more difficult to play at slower tempo. I can recall any number of instructional videos - one with Tony Rice comes to mind- where they have difficulty demonstrating a part slowed down.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-02-2023, 05:16 AM
Brent Hutto's Avatar
Brent Hutto Brent Hutto is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,276
Default

I think it depends in part of your skill/experience level vs. the demands of the thing you're learning.

For many players with only a few years (or less) of experience, they don't really have that automatic mode that lets them play groups of notes quickly and automatically as one unit. So for that level of player, starting slowly and gradually sneaking up on a tempo fast enough for performance is the only way that's going to lead to a good result.

But once you develop the more advanced skills where your thinking and your fingering is operating very efficiently on entire chunks of notes, you probably need to decide if a given tune or a given passage is going to be play in fast mode or in one note at a time mode and practice accordingly.
__________________
Grabbed his jacket
Put on his walking shoes
Last seen, six feet under
Singing the I've Wasted My Whole Life Blues
---Warren Malone "Whole Life Blues"
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-02-2023, 05:18 AM
Andyrondack Andyrondack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Albion
Posts: 1,220
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marciero View Post
Its often more difficult to play at slower tempo. I can recall any number of instructional videos - one with Tony Rice comes to mind- where they have difficulty demonstrating a part slowed down.
That's something noted by neurologist Josh Turknett in the Laws of Brainjo, once control has been granted to subconscious long term memory it's difficult to go back to conscious control without the wheels falling off.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=