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  #1  
Old 03-12-2022, 03:44 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Default DEMO: Larrivee D-03 Sunburst with Ultra Tonic 3.2--NOW WITH PICKUP DIRECT TO MIC'ED

Hi, Folks, Thanks For Looking in!

A couple of weeks ago, I bought a new Larrivee D-03 Sunburst and decided to install in it a James May Engineering Ultra Tonic 3.2 system. This is my second Ultra Tonic 3.2 installation the first being my Martin D-18, the sound files of which can be heard in another thread in this Acoustic Amplification section of AGF.

This installation, like the first, was done with Henkel Loctite 6-Minute Epoxy that gives a 4- to 6-minute window before setting up in which to locate exactly where you want the transducers. The Ultra Tonic 3.2 maker, James May Engineering, recommends Stewart-MacDonald 30 Thick Super Glue Gel which I recently bought. Frankly, I didn't use it because my previous experience with locating transducers has shown me that you really need a better than 20- to 30-second window in which to apply the superglue, reach in, locate the transducers, and move them around a bit because your initial try wasn't where you wanted them to be! For me, even using a jig needs more time than that! I'm assuming that the hardness/density of both the 30 Thick Super Glue Gel and Henkel Loctite 6-Minute Epoxy are somewhat similar and transmit close to the same acoustic vibrational properties? James May has indicated that he hasn't used another mounting adhesive other than the Stewart-MacDonald 30 Thick Super Glue Gel. My recommendation is that he should try it as this is what Teddy Randazzo of Dazzo transducers recommends using to mount his transducers and I've used it in Dazzo and Trance Amulet installations with good results!

So, what does the Larrivee D-03 Sunburst sound like with its Ultra Tonic 3.2 system? Below are two song files I just recorded using a fairly aggressive flat pick attack. Why do my demos always primarily demonstrate flatpicking? IMHO, if an acoustic transducer system sounds good when flatpicking it'll sound good when fingerpicking.

The following were recorded with the Ultra Tonic 3.2 system's DIP-switch array initially set at 4. I may go to 3 on the array to get even more bass response and less clickiness in the mid-range and trebles but the Larrivee D-03 with its parabolic symmetrical X-brace strikes a good balance across the tonal spectrum and is easy to get a good amplified tone out of. Please excuse my almost 72-year-old dry fingers (pick shift in the fingers is real on an old guy!), and recovering carpal-tunnel hands in the making of these demos--Yeah, I know, excuses, excuses, excuses for sloppy playing!

Your comments on the tone of this flatpicked Larrivee D-03 Sunburst with Ultra Tonic 3.2 combination are Welcomed!

My instrumental/guitar backing to my vocals for John Hiatt's "Crossing Muddy Waters"


My guitar backing to my vocals for George Strait's "If You're Thinking You Want A Stranger (There's One Coming Home)"


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Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 03-27-2022 at 09:21 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-13-2022, 09:21 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Rather than remove the strings if I feel I want to make an adjustment to the James May Engineering Ultra Tonic 3.2 system, these are the tools I use to adjust the onboard DIP-switch array after having installed it in a guitar. The whole process takes 5-minutes:

1) Remove the jack's screw-on strap button using the Stew-Mac soft-jawed pliers;

2) Use an appropriately-sized small screwdriver through the cross-drilled holes in the jack to enable the use of the thin 1/2" inch wrench to loosen the jack's external nut;

3) After slightly loosening the nut insert the brass Jack Installation Tool into the jack and then completely back off the nut and washer onto the shaft of the Jack Installation Tool;

4) Now carefully push the Jack Installation Tool into the guitar's body so the Ultra Tonic 3.2 circuit board is visible in the soundhole. Reach in around the strings and support the end of the circuit board and make your DIP-switch adjustment using a small flat-blade jeweler's screwdriver;

5) Reverse the procedure to secure the circuit board/endpin/jack assembly into the end block and tighten everything back up. Test the guitar to hear what the DIP-switch circuit board adjustment has done for the amplified tone.

Other makeshift tools could be used to accomplish the same process but I've found these tools facilitate the process and keep everything from getting marred. These tools can be used for gaining access to any acoustic-guitar endpin assembly when it's in the guitar without removing the strings.

__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 03-13-2022 at 11:51 AM.
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  #3  
Old 03-13-2022, 02:05 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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My assessment of the tone at DIP-switch setting 4 is that I hear too much "stringiness" or "clickiness" in the midrange and trebles. I'll adjust the DIP-switch array to switch-setting 3 which should add a bit more bass content and smooth out the mids and trebles, and I'll make another recording in a while.
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 03-13-2022 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 03-13-2022, 05:25 PM
jricc jricc is offline
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Thanks for the demos Sprucetop. I listened twice, once through inexpensive Behringer monitors and once through inexpensive Audio Technica headphones. There was a big difference, through the Behringer monitors it was mostly midrange and trebles, not bad though. But through the headphones, the bass was there and the mids and trebles were more balanced.

I'd be interested to hear the difference when you change the dip switch.
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Old 03-14-2022, 08:16 AM
fwphoto fwphoto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jricc View Post
Thanks for the demos Sprucetop. I listened twice, once through inexpensive Behringer monitors and once through inexpensive Audio Technica headphones. There was a big difference, through the Behringer monitors it was mostly midrange and trebles, not bad though. But through the headphones, the bass was there and the mids and trebles were more balanced.
Yeah, that's why I make my adjustments "live" while sitting directly in front of my Genz-Benz Shen 85. I play live with a loud, large-ish band & need to setup the dip switch primarily to eliminate feedback. If I was recording or doing more online stuff I'd definitely be using headphones to get the best sound quality from the pickup. It doesn't do me any good, though, to get the Ultra Tonic sounding great with headphones if I have to go back to the soundhole cover to keep from feedback when I'm playing with the band.

Yes, the world if full of compromise! :-)

Spruce,

I thought the files sounded pretty good. I'm hoping my D-18 sounds good at dip #4. That might be the compromise setting for me. Love your tools! That Jack Install tool looks great. The soft-jawed pliers are nice, too.

Frank
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  #6  
Old 03-15-2022, 12:31 PM
tadol tadol is offline
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I’ve tried to bite my tongue through all this, but for others less familiar with the UltraTonic pickup, most people will adjust the pickup to minimize (or eliminate) feedback, while getting a good, solid, balanced tone, and they’re done. The switches aren’t an awkward EQ adjustment, they’re designed to adjust the pickup for the responsiveness and natural resonance of the guitar they’re installed in. Once you get one set, and installed into the guitar, you really never have to think about it again. If the amp, or PA, or headphones, need some adjustment to get the sound you want out of them, that’s what you are adjusting for - not the guitar. I’ve found that the UT running straight into most amps or PAs sounds pretty darn good, and the tone controls on the amp will bring out almost as good a sound as that amp can give you. Yes, a much fancier Preamp/EQ can make it better, but playing with a few other amplified instruments and 3 or 4 amplified voices, what extra I might gain is generally lost in the overall mix. For me, the very good tone, without feedback, and absolute simplicity post-install of the UltraTonic is why I like it so much -
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Old 03-15-2022, 03:43 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadol View Post
I’ve tried to bite my tongue through all this, but for others less familiar with the UltraTonic pickup, most people will adjust the pickup to minimize (or eliminate) feedback, while getting a good, solid, balanced tone, and they’re done. The switches aren’t an awkward EQ adjustment, they’re designed to adjust the pickup for the responsiveness and natural resonance of the guitar they’re installed in. Once you get one set, and installed into the guitar, you really never have to think about it again. If the amp, or PA, or headphones, need some adjustment to get the sound you want out of them, that’s what you are adjusting for - not the guitar. I’ve found that the UT running straight into most amps or PAs sounds pretty darn good, and the tone controls on the amp will bring out almost as good a sound as that amp can give you. Yes, a much fancier Preamp/EQ can make it better, but playing with a few other amplified instruments and 3 or 4 amplified voices, what extra I might gain is generally lost in the overall mix. For me, the very good tone, without feedback, and absolute simplicity post-install of the UltraTonic is why I like it so much -
Thanks, Tad! I think what you're saying is that when the Ultra Tonic is adjusted to sound good with reduced feedback potential over a PA, it may not sound really good through headphones or recorded direct, correct?

With the Larrivee D-03, I installed the Ultra Tonic with the switch set at 4 knowing that with my tools I can go back in and make an adjustment in 5 minutes. I found with my Martin D-18 installation that having the circuit board hanging out of the guitar was cumbersome and my ears started losing sensitivity from one switch adjustment to the next when listening to an acoustic amp. So, with the Larrivee, I set it at switch 4 and battened everything up to make my final tonal adjustments later after listening to it through my PA. I've yet to do it but will this weekend. Basically, it's almost pointless to make direct recordings of the Ultra Tonic/guitar combination or other pickup/guitar combinations as demonstrations as a listener won't be hearing the combination as it sounds live. I've always found that pickup/guitar combinations always sound better over a PA than listening to direct-to-computer recordings through headphones or near-field speakers.
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Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 03-15-2022 at 03:53 PM.
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  #8  
Old 03-15-2022, 07:21 PM
tadol tadol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Thanks, Tad! I think what you're saying is that when the Ultra Tonic is adjusted to sound good with reduced feedback potential over a PA, it may not sound really good through headphones or recorded direct, correct?
Well - sorta - kinda - maybe? But not really -

A pickup is just grabbing a signal and sending it out to some other equipment to deal with. Its job isn't really to adjust anything depending on what its plugged into. Ideally, it puts out a well balanced signal that correlates very closely to the instrument its installed in. The problem with acoustic instruments is they have natural resonance frequencies themselves (actually everything does, but . . ) and if those frequencies get picked up at the same level as everything else and amplified, you get a most unpleasant result. So James kind of figured out the inherent problems with an otherwise excellent acoustic instrument pickup system, and designed ways to overcome those problems - the extra disc and the custom circuit board are the result. The circuit board isn't really an EQ, its more of an attenuator to cut back on a natural resonance frequency range, so the amplified instrument doesn't get into a feedback response. And then there's the extra disc - which, well - ask James -

Really - James is the best person to explain it all for those with the audio-engineering background to understand it all - thats not me. But I approach it simply - when I put THE UltraTonic in my baritone Santa Cruz, I just aimed it at my amp, and cranked it up. I played with the switches until I got essentially no feedback, even at very high volume and sitting straight in front of the amp. That was all I needed. The baritone sounds fantastic through a good full range acoustic amp. It sounds less great through an electric guitar amp. It sounds good through a PA system, but it sounds even better if the PA has a clean subwoofer on it. I have no idea how it sounds through headphones, or direct recording - I've not tried it. I can't imagine I wouldn't get alot bleed through any headphones, as the baritone is quite loud and resonant. And if I were recording it, I'd probably use a really good mic, or my ToneDexter - not the pickup.

All I'm saying is that I would plug your guitar into the best amp you have or think you'd use, and get the output as balanced and feedback free as you can. Then, if you need to EQ it for a specific PA, or a specific amp, then use an EQ pedal or whatever to do that. I've found that most PAs have enough EQ on the channel, and most amps have enough tone control, that I can get a great sound just using those - especially when I have an electric bass, electric lead guitar, and 3 or 4 people singing as well. If I were playing it solo, I'd run out through a ToneDexter, and that would give me a great acoustic solo tone.

It's just not that tricky or difficult to get it right -
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Old 03-19-2022, 02:14 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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I made an adjustment to switch 3 on the Ultra Tonic 3.2 circuit board switch array and think it sounds a bit better than the initial switch 4 demo I made for this combination. If anyone is interested, I'll post another demo made at this new switch 3 position. If not, I can heartily recommend the Ultra Tonic 3.2 system as a top-three choice for your acoustic guitar. Your mileage can, will, and MUST vary or things wouldn't be real, would they?
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 03-19-2022 at 02:22 PM.
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  #10  
Old 03-19-2022, 08:08 PM
DownUpDave DownUpDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
I made an adjustment to switch 3 on the Ultra Tonic 3.2 circuit board switch array and think it sounds a bit better than the initial switch 4 demo I made for this combination. If anyone is interested, I'll post another demo made at this new switch 3 position. If not, I can heartily recommend the Ultra Tonic 3.2 system as a top-three choice for your acoustic guitar. Your mileage can, will, and MUST vary or things wouldn't be real, would they?
I would love to hear this plugged into an amp and just mic and record the sound coming out of the amp. Direct recording doesn’t always give a good representation of what the guitar sounds like through an amp.
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Old 03-20-2022, 09:05 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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I would love to hear this plugged into an amp and just mic and record the sound coming out of the amp. Direct recording doesn’t always give a good representation of what the guitar sounds like through an amp.
Dave, that's what I'll do! Frankly, when played with a flatpick all pickup systems sound like a pickup with that piezo tone when direct-to-computer recorded. What I'll initially do, and it'll be my first time doing a speaker-to-mic recording, will be to place a Shure SM81 mic about 6-feet in front on my LR Baggs Synapse and at a height that'll place the mic's capsule in the combined throws of the treble and bass horns. A bit of mic-to-speaker experimentation with distance will likely be needed to get a good and balanced amplified tone at the mic. More to come ...
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2
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Old 03-20-2022, 01:37 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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2022 Larrivee D-03 Sunburst with UltraTonic 3.2

The first sound file was first recorded through a Grace Design FELiX 2 with all EQ set flat and with a 1 MegaOhm input impedance and the into a PreSonus Studio 192 Interface and into the Audacity DAW. The second sound file was recorded directly into the PreSonus Studio 192 Interface with its 1 MegaOhm input impedance and into the Audacity DAW.

My guitar backing to my vocals for George Strait's "If You're Thinking You Want A Stranger (There's One Coming Home)" 2022 Larrivee D-03 Sunburst/UltraTonic 3.2 with DIP-Switch set at 4



My guitar backing to my vocals for George Strait's "If You're Thinking You Want A Stranger (There's One Coming Home)" 2022 Larrivee D-03 Sunburst/UltraTonic 3.2 with DIP-Switch set at 3
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 11-03-2022 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 03-20-2022, 01:58 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Besides being recorded a little quieter than Switch 4, I hear a little more bass in Switch 3 setting. It's kind of irresponsible of me to have recorded the two demos one with the Switch 4 through the FELiX 2 in the signal chain, and the second with Switch 3 without the FELiX 2 in the signal chain. The real amplified tonal value of the Ultra Tonic 3.2 system will be revealed when I simultaneously record the guitar direct-to-computer and also with a mic in front of a PA speaker. Stay tuned ...
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 03-21-2022 at 02:42 AM.
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Old 03-26-2022, 03:01 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Default PICKUP DIRECT VERSUS PICKUP MIC'ED COMPARISON

Here are two tracks I simultaneously recorded to demonstrate the tone of the Ultra Tonic 3.2 Pickup System/Larrivee D-03 Sunburst recorded direct-to-computer compared to the same combination fed to an LR Baggs Synapse Personal PA Loudspeaker and mic'ed with a Shure SM81 Small Condenser Microphone placed at 6-feet from the loudspeaker. The Ultra Tonic's DIP-switch array is set at 3. ALL EQ IS FLAT ON THE FELiX 2 PREAMP AND LR BAGGS SYNAPSE PERSONAL PA AND NO EFFECTS ARE USED. Both sound sources are fed into a PreSonus Studio 192 Interface and recorded with the latest version of Audacity. My goal was to record the song file from a PA speaker at the minimum distance an audience member would hear it so as to let the output from the treble and bass horns merge into a whole tonal representation of the guitar's/speaker's sound. Would a longer distance than 6-feet result in a better recording? Maybe, but I haven't experimented with mic placement and used the 6-foot distance as a starting point.

The song file is my guitar backing to my vocals for George Strait's "If You're Thinking You Want A Stranger (There's One Coming Home)."

Your comments on this simultaneously recorded direct-to-computer/mic'ed via a PA comparison are welcomed! Does the Ultra Tonic 3.2 come across as sounding good when broadcasted through a PA speaker as a worthy consideration for your next pickup choice?

PICKUP ONLY:


PICKUP MIC'ED WITH SHURE SM81 AT 6-FEET FROM LR BAGGS SYNAPSE PERSONAL PA:
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 03-27-2022 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 03-27-2022, 04:02 AM
DownUpDave DownUpDave is offline
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Thanks for doing those recording, great idea to have both formats together. The pick up sounds really good and yes I would definitely consider one for any guitar.

A couple observations if I may. The mic’ed version sounds quite natural, like I hope an amplified acoustic guitar would sound through an amp or PA. I did notice the mic seemed to have been over powered a bit by the volume of the amp. The direct recording was better then I expected. You seem to have the pick up dialed in very well with the dip switch position. Thank for taking the time to do this, it was a worthy experiment.
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