The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 04-30-2021, 10:03 AM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,556
Default

I definitely sense a bit of bias here and possibly some negativity towards the Voiceprint, especially with regards to the need for an iphone or ipad. I am trying to keep an open mind until I purchase and try it. Again, I think the Tonedexter is fantastic but it's just not a "plug and play" option for me. I am hoping the VP is easier to make work live.

I unfortunately don't own a magnetic pickup, but just for fun, I would still like to hear how the VP sounds with one.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-30-2021, 10:17 AM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 25,422
Default

You can actually use the VoicePrint with any microphone you want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHhRf6AUOI0

Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-30-2021, 10:49 AM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
You can actually use the VoicePrint with any microphone you want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHhRf6AUOI0

That part is neat! When I get mine, I want to try it with my Shure MV88 mic that attaches directly to my iphone.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-30-2021, 12:56 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,878
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
That part is neat! When I get mine, I want to try it with my Shure MV88 mic that attaches directly to my iphone.
I found the MV88 worked very well, tho it varied. With some guitars/attempts, the phone mics work better, other times, the MV88 won. The mics in the phone appear to be quite good for this task - they're relatively flat, and could be seen as "measurement mics". I've also used a Duet to bring in a "real" mic, and surprisingly had less luck with that, tho maybe I just need to try harder.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-30-2021, 01:24 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I found the MV88 worked very well, tho it varied. With some guitars/attempts, the phone mics work better, other times, the MV88 won. The mics in the phone appear to be quite good for this task - they're relatively flat, and could be seen as "measurement mics". I've also used a Duet to bring in a "real" mic, and surprisingly had less luck with that, tho maybe I just need to try harder.
Thanks Doug! I guess it's a pretty easy experiment. It took a while for the VP to land here in Canada so I am getting excited to try it out.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-30-2021, 01:42 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 25,422
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
The mics in the phone appear to be quite good for this task - they're relatively flat, and could be seen as "measurement mics".
That's interesting . . . no wonder the iPhones cost so much.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-30-2021, 07:22 PM
Marty C Marty C is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,223
Default

I have a few questions for someone with IR experience.
— Any of your IR’s get hollow as you turn them up louder? Mine sound good at low volumes, but very hollow and bass heavy as I turn up.
- Anyone using them with a Bose S1 Pro?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-01-2021, 12:44 AM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,878
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
That's interesting . . . no wonder the iPhones cost so much.
Measurement mics don't have to be "good" sounding. The one many people use is the Behringer ECM8000, which runs $29. The important thing is that it be relatively flat, full range response, AND have a known response curve that can be compensated for. (That doesn't mean it will make a good recording.) Because the iphone mic is a known quantity, it can work fine for this type of application. There are various acoustic measurement apps on the iPhone that work quite well as another use case. It also probably helps that they're omni, so you don't get into proximity effect issues when using them to train (or for any other measurement purpose)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-01-2021, 06:30 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
Does anybody have a good comparison of the ToneDexter vs the Baggs VoicePrint?

It would seem that the VoicePrint has a lot of extra capability in the form of EQ available, that one would have to use a separate EQ pedal if using the ToneDexter.

And the VoicePrint seems easier (if you own an iPhone) for recording and making the IR image.

But how good are the IR results in the VoicePrint vs the ToneDexter? IF the ToneDexter if FAR superior in that regard, then it would seem to be the better choice. Otherwise, the VoicePrint might seem to be the more logical choice.
It appears that the VoicePrint (plus iPhone) has a definite edge with respect to using EQ to tone shape. What I'm most curious about, however, is the effectiveness of the new anti-feedback technology which both the VoicePrint and the latest ToneDexter software are applying. I'm wondering which device will do the best job of taming feedback and/or excess boominess from an SBT-equipped guitar in a noisy and problematic performance environment.

James May made the new ToneDexter anti-feedback capabilities sound very impressive in that the available single-dial frequency cuts do a good job of matching the guitar's natural resonant frequency boosts. To be fair, Lloyd Baggs was also very enthusiastic about the VoicePrint's anti-feedback capabilities.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-01-2021, 07:15 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 4,598
Default

Let's do some math...

Three generations of iPhone in common usage to support, 4 physical versions with different bill-of-materials, and every part, including the mic, second sourced. 3x4x2 or 24 mics to have tested to make sure your EQ compensation is correct...

IMO mic selection is distant second to mic placement and I think the iPhone mics are pretty good overall. But to assume Baggs has this well tested and under control is pure marketing BS.

VP maybe the better product for any or most individuals, but there is no way I would take their demos and talking as proof for my personal usage. You need to try it.

I am in particular suspicious of any claim about automatic EQ or feedback suppression. I've yet to hear one I thought I sounded as good as a phase reversal button and a low cut knob.

ToneDexter's algorithmically understandable split IR (bass/treble) along with minimum phase made possible by storing the entire frequency domain IR in the pedal and having the DSP resident to mine it real time (this is important!) impresses. No IR loader with some number of fixed IRs is competitive with this in the real world where every stage is unique.

All configurable through a neat mapping onto one knob they call "character" strikes me as a truly user friendly user interface that will always add value, sound musical, and by the nature of the math something that doesn't need infinite system test to know its goodness.
__________________
jf45ir Free DIY Acoustic Guitar IR Generator
.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 50/50 & 0/100 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields

Last edited by jonfields45; 05-01-2021 at 07:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-01-2021, 07:33 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,709
Default

Jon,

Room acoustics will no doubt play a role with the feedback issue, but I'm hopeful that knowing the guitar's natural resonant peaks and being able to counter them with a single-knob control will be substantially helpful. In any event, I'm hopeful that user feedback (or non-feedback feedback) will answer that question eventually.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-01-2021, 07:38 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 4,598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Jon,

Room acoustics will no doubt play a role with the feedback issue, but I'm hopeful that knowing the guitar's natural resonant peaks and being able to counter them with a single-knob control will be substantially helpful. In any event, I'm hopeful that user feedback (or non-feedback feedback) will answer that question eventually.
My point is the TD split IR does exactly that in a mathematically and musically sensible way.
__________________
jf45ir Free DIY Acoustic Guitar IR Generator
.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 50/50 & 0/100 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-01-2021, 08:23 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
My point is the TD split IR does exactly that in a mathematically and musically sensible way.
When you refer to a split IR, are you saying that TD's bass and treble controls can be used to raise or lower a certain frequency range rather evenly, as opposed to behaving like a bass and treble control usually behave? (ie., A typical bass control would roll off much more at 80Hz than at 160Hz, while 160Hz might be where the actual boominess problem is.)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-01-2021, 08:46 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
Let's do some math...



Three generations of iPhone in common usage to support, 4 physical versions with different bill-of-materials, and every part, including the mic, second sourced. 3x4x2 or 24 mics to have tested to make sure your EQ compensation is correct...



IMO mic selection is distant second to mic placement and I think the iPhone mics are pretty good overall. But to assume Baggs has this well tested and under control is pure marketing BS.



VP maybe the better product for any or most individuals, but there is no way I would take their demos and talking as proof for my personal usage. You need to try it.



I am in particular suspicious of any claim about automatic EQ or feedback suppression. I've yet to hear one I thought I sounded as good as a phase reversal button and a low cut knob.



ToneDexter's algorithmically understandable split IR (bass/treble) along with minimum phase made possible by storing the entire frequency domain IR in the pedal and having the DSP resident to mine it real time (this is important!) impresses. No IR loader with some number of fixed IRs is competitive with this in the real world where every stage is unique.



All configurable through a neat mapping onto one knob they call "character" strikes me as a truly user friendly user interface that will always add value, sound musical, and by the nature of the math something that doesn't need infinite system test to know its goodness.
Excellent!!! James doesn't get enough credit for working out the math and applying it in a way that musicians will truly benefit in real world performances.

[For full disclosure I sold my TD because I didn't use it. I get good enough sound from the K&K and a preamp.]
__________________
"Lift your head and smile at trouble. You'll find happiness someday."
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-01-2021, 08:49 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
When you refer to a split IR, are you saying that TD's bass and treble controls can be used to raise or lower a certain frequency range rather evenly, as opposed to behaving like a bass and treble control usually behave? (ie., A typical bass control would roll off much more at 80Hz than at 160Hz, while 160Hz might be where the actual boominess problem is.)
No, the TD unit has the math capability ONBOARD to process an IR in real time and create a new response as you turn the dial. Splitting means that that upper frequency IR can change differently than the lower end, which isbthe source of feedback. It's genius compared to a static IR with post processing EQ applied.
__________________
"Lift your head and smile at trouble. You'll find happiness someday."
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=