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  #61  
Old 04-23-2017, 06:00 AM
buzzardwhiskey buzzardwhiskey is offline
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Originally Posted by AeroUSA View Post
Gig #2 done. My advice, if you have a nice acoustic with a K&K or undersaddle pickup and you like the sound of a mic'ed acoustic. Get a ToneDexter now.
That about as accurate and succinct as one can make it. I concur.
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  #62  
Old 04-23-2017, 07:49 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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From what I can gather, mic placement for training the ToneDexter is crucial to generating the tone a player wants to hear in their amplified sound. Maybe for those wanting a fuller amplified tone, the mic should be aimed between the neck/body juncture and the soundhole of the guitar, rather than the more generally-accepted neck/body juncture? Or, how about aimed at the soundhole but from an experimentally determined distance to minimize boominess while retaining fullness?

Then there are the characteristics of the mic itself that should be taken into consideration to help expedite the training process, For example, if I were to use an Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina for training the ToneDexter, the company's Edwina analysis graph shows the Edwina at:

6 inches from sound source as having a Flat frequency response 20Hz - 15kHz (-3dB) with 80Hz (-1dB);

and

20 inches from sound source as having a frequency response of 20Hz (-7dB) - 15kHz (-3dB) with 80Hz (-6dB)

So, for training the ToneDexter to have a neutral or flat EQ frequency response with regards to the Edwina's characteristics, I'd start by placing the Edwina about 6 inches from the guitar, and aimed at several different places on the guitar to generate several different ToneDexter files and choose the best result. Then, I'd move the mic back a few inches and do the same training procedure and choose the best result. Of course, depending on the guitar, there will be boomy- and thin-toned results at various distances and aiming directions but at least there will be an organized procedure to find the most pleasing Dexterized tone.

Trumpet Labs Edwina Analysis Graphs

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Last edited by SpruceTop; 04-23-2017 at 11:43 AM.
  #63  
Old 04-23-2017, 07:59 AM
Uncle Pauhana Uncle Pauhana is offline
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When I record, my engineer always sets up a pair of Neumann condensers pointing here and there, and it sounds awesome. If/when I get a TD, I would be curious to try that setup for best sound, then mix it to mono and send it back to the TD.

Overkill? Maybe James will comment when he can.
  #64  
Old 04-23-2017, 08:44 AM
AeroUSA AeroUSA is offline
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Yes I'd like to know more about mic types and placement and EXACTLY how much it affects the image map. I also wonder why there is not a way to blend some of the pickup back into the map. It might be nice for the upbeat strumming songs. I'm having a Matrix undersaddle installed this week. I'll continue to use the K&K until then.
  #65  
Old 04-23-2017, 08:58 AM
Uncle Pauhana Uncle Pauhana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeroUSA View Post
I also wonder why there is not a way to blend some of the pickup back into the map. It might be nice for the upbeat strumming songs.
Just going by what I've read here… but isn't the "character" function meant to produce a similar effect to blending the raw pickup signal? (I.e., sharper attack.)
  #66  
Old 04-23-2017, 09:32 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
From what I can gather, mic placement for training the ToneDexter is crucial to generating the tone a player wants to hear in their amplified sound. Maybe for those wanting a fuller amplified tone, the mic should be aimed between the neck/body juncture and the soundhole of the guitar, rather than the more generally-accepted neck/body juncture? Or, how about aimed at the soundhole but from an experimentally determined distance to minimize boominess while retaining fullness?

Then there are the characteristics of the mic itself that should be taken into consideration to help expedite the training process, For example, if I were to use an Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina for training the ToneDexter, the company's Edwina analysis graph shows the Edwina at:

6 inches from sound source ashaving a Flat frequency response 20Hz - 15kHz (-3dB) with 80Hz (-1dB);

and

20 inches from sound source as having a frequency response of 20 Hz (-7dB) - 15kHz (-3dB) with 80Hz (-6dB)

So, for training the ToneDexter to have a neutral or flat EQ frequency response with regards to the Edwina's characteristics, I'd start by placing the Edwina about 6 inches from the guitar, and aimed at several different places on the guitar to generate several different ToneDexter files and choose the best result. Then, I'd move the mic back a few inches and do the same training procedure and choose the best result. Of course, depending on the guitar, there will be boomy- and thin-toned results at various distances and aiming directions but at least there will be an organized procedure to find the most pleasing Dexterized tone.

Trumpet Labs Edwina Analysis Graphs

That's a great idea (the Edwina mic) for reducing the amount of ambiance in the signal, but I wonder if it won't be picking up too limited of an area of the guitar (at 6" distance). As I understand it, part of the advantage of miking from a distance is that it picks up a broader area of the guitar, as opposed to say a Baggs Lyric mic which "listens" in a very close up and more limited way. In any event, if the idea is simply to get a flat frequency response from a close distance, I'd think that an omni-directional mic would also do that job. I once had an omni-directional Earthworks mic which was good for that.

On the subject of what mic to train with, I'm wondering if a decent dynamic mic would yield a less articulate and somewhat softer sound which some folks might prefer to what they'll get with a good condenser mic.

I recall, SpruceTop, that you prefer an Aura sound image created with a ribbon mic for your Aura guitar. Perhaps there's some quality of a ribbon mic which appeals to your personal taste.


With all the miking options available, I imagine some studio engineer could have a ball with creating eleven different WaveMaps (for a single instrument) and recording the Dexterized results.

Last edited by guitaniac; 04-23-2017 at 09:48 AM.
  #67  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:05 AM
buzzardwhiskey buzzardwhiskey is offline
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I'm betting that you want "chacterless", "fast" and "accurate" in a ToneDexter training mic. A pencil condenser like the Neumann KM184 or even the Earthworks SR30 is my bet as the best solution.
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  #68  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:26 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey View Post
I'm betting that you want "chacterless", "fast" and "accurate" in a ToneDexter training mic. A pencil condenser like the Neumann KM184 or even the Earthworks SR30 is my bet as the best solution.
That's probably what I'd want, but I can recall a discussion about Aura sound images where someone commented that he preferred a sound image (out of the ones available for his particular guitar) which was created with a Shure SM57. Different strokes for different folks.

Last edited by guitaniac; 04-23-2017 at 11:23 AM.
  #69  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:04 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
That's a great idea (the Edwina mic) for reducing the amount of ambiance in the signal, but I wonder if it won't be picking up too limited of an area of the guitar (at 6" distance). As I understand it, part of the advantage of miking from a distance is that it picks up a broader area of the guitar, as opposed to say a Baggs Lyric mic which "listens" in a very close up and more limited way. In any event, if the idea is simply to get a flat frequency response from a close distance, I'd think that an omni-directional mic would also do that job. I once had an omni-directional Earthworks mic which was good for that.

On the subject of what mic to train with, I'm wondering if a decent dynamic mic would yield a less articulate and somewhat softer sound which some folks might prefer to what they'll get with a good condenser mic.

I recall, SpruceTop, that you prefer an Aura sound image created with a ribbon mic for your Aura guitar. Perhaps there's some quality of a ribbon mic which appeals to your personal taste.


With all the miking options available, I imagine some studio engineer could have a ball with creating eleven different WaveMaps (for a single instrument) and recording the Dexterized results.
The 6-inch distance was used as a reference point for a flat response for the Edwina. Then, as you've mentioned, it could be situated in other places (farther away) to capture a better overall representation of the target acoustic guitar's tone.

When I see acoustic instruments individually mic'ed on live TV shows, I usually see a Shure SM81, or a Shure SM57, or a Shure Beta 57A, with the performer's guitar at least 6 inches and more away from the mic. Some performers now use the Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina or Edna. For group ensemble mic'ing, a couple of Neumann U87 mics seem popular. Check out Reno's Old Time Music on RFDTV, on Saturday nights.

Yes, I've found for my flatpicking style, either on a Martin with Onboard Aura or when using an Aura pedal, what I like is the Aura Image generated from a ribbon mic as it just seems warmer and fuller. When flesh-and-nail fingerpicking, I might switch to a Neumann U47 or U87 Aura Image. I recall rmyAddison also remarking in response to one of my comments that he, too, tended to favor the Ribbon-mic Aura Image.
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Last edited by SpruceTop; 04-23-2017 at 04:27 PM.
  #70  
Old 04-23-2017, 01:44 PM
JStotes JStotes is offline
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I received notice that my TD is being shipped as well. Looking forward to experimenting with it. I have an Edwina and a couple of Avantone condenser's to try out as well as several other mic's.

I'm primarily interested in using the TD with my Fishman equipped Rainsong Jumbo, but have several traditional guitars with K&K's or Dazzo's installed to work with as well. Should be fun to mess around and see what works best.
  #71  
Old 04-23-2017, 01:46 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by JStotes View Post
I received notice that my TD is being shipped as well. Looking forward to experimenting with it. I have an Edwina and a couple of Avantone condenser's to try out as well as several other mic's.

I'm primarily interested in using the TD with my Fishman equipped Rainsong Jumbo, but have several traditional guitars with K&K's or Dazzo's installed to work with as well. Should be fun to mess around and see what works best.
You're going to have a good-time field day! Enjoy!
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  #72  
Old 04-23-2017, 01:54 PM
JStotes JStotes is offline
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Thanks Spruce! I see by your sig that you have a Rainsong as well. Have you tried it with the TD yet?

Also, those Edwina mics are pretty sweet.
  #73  
Old 04-23-2017, 02:59 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by JStotes View Post
Thanks Spruce! I see by your sig that you have a Rainsong as well. Have you tried it with the TD yet?

Also, those Edwina mics are pretty sweet.
Hi JStotes, Although I'm on the first-edition, reserved list, I've not yet ordered a ToneDexter but I'm getting more tempted to do so the more I read this thread!
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  #74  
Old 04-23-2017, 03:40 PM
AeroUSA AeroUSA is offline
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I am surprised some of you guys are not more excited over this pedal. For me it's everything that the aura was supposed to be. It's AMAZING. Having said that it is definitely the sound of a microphone, I found that it cut well today. I actually found that having be character all the way to the right gave me a brighter/crisper sound which I would not expect. I would have thought all the way counter clockwise would have achieved this?

Also I did some EQ on my TC Play Acoustic pedal which worked well. When I was testing the k & k I had tried a 80hz low cut and a cut at 200hz for boominess and a 10,000hz shelf boost for sparkle - it didn't do much for me! BUT with the Tone Dexter it achieved good results. I guess the article I read was for recording with a mic!

I also wish the boost could have more treble and less bass so that it cuts better. A pedal that offers EQ and a separate boost with its own EQ would be a good match for Tone Dexter but I like to travel light.

Now I'm wondering how this will work with different guitars. I always play small body guitars because they mostly sound the same plugged in but I'm wondering if there will be a noticeable difference with the Tone Dexter. Maybe a Dread would be better for me as a solo singer/guitarist...
  #75  
Old 04-23-2017, 04:06 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by AeroUSA View Post
Maybe a Dread would be better for me as a solo singer/guitarist...
I always found a dreadnought or other large-shape guitar was what I needed when I was a solo singer/guitarist. It helped keep the rhythm punching through on alternating bass-style flatpick and fingerpicking. A work-around would be to use your foot to punch the rhythm through when playing a small or any size guitar. You can do this with an amplified PorchBoard-style device or tap your foot against the base of your vocal mic-stand. If you get a chance, go listen to John Hammond do his solo acoustic blues show! He uses a strong foot-stomp on the stage floor, which may be mic'ed, or his vocal and guitar mics are picking up enough floor vibration to add greatly to his show!
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