John Prine Song Question

[Huskyman]

I am not sure if I am posting this in the correct forum. Please move if not.

So the John Prine song That's The Way The World Goes Round is my question. My friend has recorded it on her acoustic guitar by strumming the chords. So I am doing the intro fingerpicking and the same thing is played after each chorus and at the end of the song. In those spots where my finger picking would go is also her strumming. Now I am able to play over it but when I play it back it just does not sound good to me at all. The fingerpicking by itself sounds great on its own. Is the wrong way to record it? I found a few vids of John playing it live and there seems to be no backing rhythm guitar when he is playing that intro and after the choruses piece, maybe some bass but I can't hear any strumming. I am hoping we are doing it wrong because I am about to give up on it! Thanks.

[Charlie Bernstein]

The important things are that:

- the two of you are playing the same chords at the same time.

- you're both playing clearly and accurately.

- she's not drowning you out.

Happy enchilada!

[Huskyman]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

The important things are that:

- the two of you are playing the same chords at the same time.

- you're both playing clearly and accurately.

- she's not drowning you out.

Happy enchilada!

Thank You.

[JonPR]

What Charlie said!

As I guess you are recording an overdub to her existing strumming, the first thing to try is to just turn down the strumming during your fingerpicking - i.e., it's a simple balance in the mix (the guitats must be on separate tracks of course): you adjust the relative volumes until the two guitars sound right together - you can hear your fingerpicking, but still hear her strumming.

(Personally, I would have the fingerpicking the whole way through - as on the original - but mixed back behind the vocal, so both guitars work as a texture accompanying the vocal. But the arrangement is your choice, of course. Or hers! ;-))

If playing live - or recording together live! - the same things apply. Strumming is naturally louder than fingerpicking (unless the latter is more loudly amplified!), and anyone strumming with a fingerpicker has to listen to the picker and follow them - not vice versa! Naturally the picker's timing needs to be rock solid. keeping the beat and all the 8ths in place.

[rmp]

Charlie has it

There has to be some synergy into what both guitars are doing.

One should compliment the other. sounds like they are instead on a collision course.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Huskyman

I am not sure if I am posting this in the correct forum. Please move if not.

So the John Prine song That's The Way The World Goes Round is my question. My friend has recorded it on her acoustic guitar by strumming the chords. So I am doing the intro fingerpicking and the same thing is played after each chorus and at the end of the song. In those spots where my finger picking would go is also her strumming. Now I am able to play over it but when I play it back it just does not sound good to me at all. The fingerpicking by itself sounds great on its own. Is the wrong way to record it? I found a few vids of John playing it live and there seems to be no backing rhythm guitar when he is playing that intro and after the choruses piece, maybe some bass but I can't hear any strumming. I am hoping we are doing it wrong because I am about to give up on it! Thanks.

First Yes from the little amount of info you have given it probably should be in the Recording sub forum
But NO you are not doing it wrong per se. --that is to say --strumming and picking is not wrong and likely not the issue. It is in fact a pretty standard multi guitar session method
With the possible exception of if perhaps your fingerpicking is too busy. (hard to know without listening to it) but complex fingerpicking can compete with strumming and simply not meld well with strumming A general rule of thumb is-- often less is more.
BUT it also depends entirely on exactly what you mean by "it does not sound good" which is a bit vague. Can you give a more sonically technical observation of what "not good" is

Also you have not mentioned if there is a vocal as well

If that is not the issue ? then I am guessing it is a mixing issue



There are definitely some possible mixing fixes but perhaps more objective info would help
Like:
Is the finger picking being lost(drowned out) in the other sounds
Is the finger picking just not distinct from the other sounds

There are lots of mixing moves that can address these issues
levels --panning --eq---compression etc..

Here is an example of some strummin' an pickin'

[Glennwillow]

Playing two guitars together can be a challenge. As others have noted, playing the same chords at the same time is required, but it's more than that. Accurate timing and rhythm are required from both players and that's where most attempts at two guitars playing together fail. Few players have a really good sense of timing, even among longtime players.

- Glenn

[Brent Hahn]

On the studio record, at least, the word "round" at the end of each chorus is on Beat 4 of the bar. But stylistically it would be very "Prine" to omit Beat 4 and have "round" be Beat 1 of the next bar. He did that kind of thing in other songs, and it sounds cool. But if there are two of you playing it, and Beat 1 lands in two different places, it'll be a trainwreck. Could this be what's happening?

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

The important things are that:
- she's not drowning you out.

I isolated that comment. Fingerpicking is usually much quieter than even very light strumming. She really needs to back off a LOT to avoid overwhelming your part. Sometimes it just doesn't work well to mix & match like that too. Another thing to try is when you are fingerpicking, she should play up the neck so that you are not hitting exactly the same notes / inversions. A "C" chord as an "A" shape barred at the third fret helps her to stay out of your way when you are the emphasis. I was just covering this exact topic with a student yesterday. Whenever possible -- "play where they ain't".

[Jeffreykip]

I am not a recording expert, but I am a guy who has had to figure out home recording with the aid of books and internet advice. Some things I would try are: pan them right and left, not necessarily that hard, but it really makes a difference, and create volume envelopes so that you can bring up the fingerpicking in the open spaces people are mentioning, and then bring it down again when the voice is the featured instrument.

[Huskyman]

Thanks everyone for all the advice. My friend has worked out a little bit different arrangement besides strumming and it seems to fit much better. Later on today we should have it finished!

[dnf777]

John Prine was quick to tell audiences that he’s no guitar virtuoso! And “if youre working hard or playing barre chords, you got it all wrong”!

He did some simple and very beautiful fingerpicking himself, and Jason Wilbur usually had a G&L ASAT for accents and lead riffs. So when John would pick intros, outros, or even verses, there would usually NOT be another layer of rythym.

Like John Hurt, those humble geniuses make what they do seem simple, until you try it yourself!

Edit: just gotta say, the best musical decision I ever made was to buy spur of the moment Prine tickets and making a late night trip to see him not long before he took off his dogsuit. I have never experienced an audience-artist bond like that since. He made all 5000 of us feel like we were gathered around his coffee table with a few friends. He is still a deep well of inspiration for me!

[Huskyman]

Well this is what we came up. I know my part is a bit sloppy here and there and needs work but I think its a good start. Im not sure what she used for her track but it was not a guitar.

Constructive criticism is welcome.

https://app.box.com/s/f57g1y5frtg4hdy4uoa6ak8ax1gjncyh

[Jeffreykip]

Nicely done. It sounds like a keyboard (it’s funny to read you don’t know what instrument it is - were you collaborating remotely?). But more importantly you conundrum about hearing the two instruments is definitely resolved and I hear both distinctly.
Nice harmony. I love this song so long as I don’t listen too attentively to the first verse - Prine’s examples of a “that’s just how it is” moment is a bit gruesome, but the chorus and overall vibe are light hearted, resilient, and almost like a children’s song (that’s no criticism on you, just a thought and I hope not too negative).
High five on a home recording!

[Fast Jimmy]

Listened to it twice, loved it. Well done.
Jim