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  #31  
Old 05-03-2013, 07:29 PM
Blue Willy Blue Willy is offline
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Default 6/8 time is 6 eighth notes per bar...think Strauss waltz

You've got to visualize those dancers swooping across the floor. Accent on the 1 and 4 beats...Dig it...for you boom chick people (like me) that's bass note tonic on the one, say C chick chick on four the dominant G chick chick...on a C chord that's C chick chick G chick chick C chick chick G chick chick which is 6 beats = 1 bar. Easier to just play a tune to illustrate the groove.

On this tune in key of C I tried to get the groove that Mexican string bands playing for dancers have....all you have to do is listen to the first chorus and you'll hear it...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15o4FcRFZDI
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  #32  
Old 05-03-2013, 07:44 PM
Dave H Dave H is offline
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This is a timely discussion. I've been working on Any Day Now, by Simon Fox. It has 4/4, 3/4, 2/4 and 6/8 time. My understanding of rhythm is pretty limited. I can generally count it out, but usually just slow the song down until I can play along with it. This thread has really helped my understanding not only how it's divided up and counted, but what beats are emphasized. Much appreciated.

Last edited by Dave H; 05-03-2013 at 07:46 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #33  
Old 05-03-2013, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
Which is it? Those are three different descriptions/answers:

1-2-3-2-2-3.

ONE-2-3-FOUR-5-6 with the emphasis on 1 and 4.

ONE-and-uh-TWO-and-uh




Actually all three were the same counting method.

COUNT-step-step COUNT-step-step

They all used the same exact pattern, just different words

the sounds don't matter....imagine any word inserted there:

DOG-rock-fish CAT-stone-tree

Doesn't matter
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  #34  
Old 05-03-2013, 10:06 PM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazool View Post
Actually all three were the same counting method.

COUNT-step-step COUNT-step-step
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi Richard...
  • 6/8 time is counted/felt as 2 beats per measure subdivided into triplets
  • One-&-a Two-&-a One-&-a Two-&-a



regarding "ONE-and-uh-TWO-and-uh" ...

So where does the "ee" come in ... as in 4/4 when you tap your foot four times and say:


one - ee - and - uh (foot goes down "one - ee," foot goes up "and - uh")
two - ee - and - uh (foot goes down "two - ee," foot goes up "and - uh")
three - ee - and - uh (foot goes down "three - ee," foot goes up "and - uh")
four - ee - and - uh (foot goes down "four - ee," foot goes up "and - uh")


How do you do the above if it's 6/8 time? How would you write it out, the words you say and the "foot tapping pattern"?

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  #35  
Old 05-04-2013, 03:01 AM
clintj clintj is offline
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I would tap a foot on 1 and 4, and count the 'and a' part in my head. With the compound time signatures like 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8 the divisions are normally by three. Listen to some slow blues like Zeppelin's 'Since I've Been Loving You' and key in on the drum part. The drummer is playing the eight notes on the hi-hat, and the accented "beats" on the kick and snare.

KICK chick chick SNARE chick chick KICK chick chick SNARE chick chick

The measure feels like 4/4, with hi-hat triplets floating on top of it. The 'ee' part of it gets omitted because the subdivision is a three, so you end up with one-and-a-two-and-a. A foot pattern may be challenging because the number you are trying to tap out is not even. You could try toe, heel, heel or something like that. If you have a metronome, set it to triplets or even a quick 3/4 time and count the accented note it gives you as 1 and 4.
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  #36  
Old 05-04-2013, 03:21 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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At the most common (or traditional) tempos of 3/4 and 6/8, it's very easy to hear the difference.
As has been pointed out, Irish jigs are classic 6/8. And so are tunes like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ati1qZjaeu8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amWkIxjaBrE

Pretty easy to hear the difference between that and something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CTYymbbEL4
or this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lG3nXyI41M


In jigs and those kiddie 6/8 tunes, you'd find it pretty difficult to count all six 8th notes in every bar as "1-2-3-4-5-6". "One-and-a -Two-and-a" is the obvious way to do it.
OTOH, you can clearly hear in She's Leaving Home how (in the intro) the 8ths are are divided not in 2 sets of 3, but into 3 sets of 2.
Code:
8th notes: |x  x  x  x  x  x |
.
6/8 beats: |1  .  .  2  .  . | 
            |__|__|  |__|__|
.
3/4 beats: |1  .  2  .  3  . |
            |__|  |__|  |__|
As mentioned, it doesn't matter how you verbalise the 8ths in each case, it's the accent pattern.

It's not helpful to count six in 6/8, or to think of the 8ths as "beats". The beat should be an accent you feel, like steps if you were walking or dancing to it. IOW, what feels like the beat when you listen to it? And how do those beats then divide? into 2 (equal 8ths) or 3 (triplets)?
If the latter, then you have a compound time, like 6/8, 9/8 or 12/8.

Here's a very clear demarcation of 6/8 and 3/4 in the same tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy6wo2wpT2k
Code:
6/8                      3/4
1   .   .   2   .   .  | 1   .   2   .   3   .  |
I  like to  be  in  A----me------ri------ca
However as 6/8 slows down - as is very common in pop music - it starts to resemble pairs of 3/4 bars. Ie, it becomes much easier to count it as "ONE two three, TWO two three" - like waltz time, but with bars grouped in twos.
Bowie's "Five Years" is an example of this, as are these tunes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwAw9ThDQmk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTiXoMCppw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQh112HQsoE
What distinguishes these is the way the beats are grouped in 6s, not just 3s. Notice not just the snare (off-beat) on the 4th of each group, but the way the chords change every 6 beats. But does it feel right to feel each of those six as "beats"? You can easily count them as "1-2-3-4-5-6", but doesn't it feel more right to count them as a slow "One-and-a-Two-and-a"?
As 6/8, of course, these are extremely slow compared with the average Irish jig - maybe they should be notated as 6/4? - but tempo has little or no bearing on time sig. It's about estabishing the accent patterns in the clearest way possible: differentiating between beats, beat divisions, and downbeats (beat "1"). This 3-way differentiation is often a tricky task, and many songs are ambiguous.
(Eg, two Beatles songbooks I have each have notate "She's Leaving Home" in 3/4, while Beatles analyst Alan Pollack prefers to see it as 12/8, grouping 4 bars into one long bar.)

But chord changes (harmonic rhythm) can play a part.

Eg, this tune is (IMO) is 12/8, not 6/8, because the harmonic rhythm is (mostly) a chord change every 4 beats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijZRCIrTgQc
- that's very clear as 4 beats, each dividing into 3 = 12/8.
But it could still be notated correctly (IMO) as two bars of 6/8. But not 3/4! The feel is definitely a slow "One....Two....Three....Four", not a jaunty waltz "1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3"!
It's certainly clearer as 12/8 than "She's Leaving Home" is, IMO, although I can see the grey area.

IOW, although tempo is not supposed to play a part in time sigs, inevitably it does in certain cases, depending on what we feel is the best way of indicating the meter and rhythmic feel of a piece.

Here's another ambiguous piece in triple time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZGhxvFkHVg
Pretty clear 3/4 - but each beat is swung, like a lazy 9/8. But what's the clearest way of writing it? 9/8 would be unnecessarily fussy, harder to read; better as 3/4 with some kind of "swing 8ths" indication.
Proper 9/8 is Irish slip jigs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgYnpPHfAtI
or this classic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBrCa6GXzrU

And an example of classic jazz 12/8 (Afro-Cuban influence):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdlvzIEz-g
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Last edited by JonPR; 05-04-2013 at 03:48 AM.
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  #37  
Old 05-04-2013, 07:37 AM
JanVigne JanVigne is offline
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"You can easily count them as '1-2-3-4-5-6', but doesn't it feel more right to count them as a slow 'One-and-a-Two-and-a'?"





Yes, but then I get a visual image of champagne bubbles and Myron Floren.
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  #38  
Old 05-04-2013, 08:22 AM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchalebk View Post
ONE-and-uh-TWO-and-uh.

Norwegian Wood comes to mind
In case anyone is not familiar with this book: The Beatles Complete Scores (1993)

Hal Leonard's "The BEATLES Complete Scores" has Norwegian Wood as 12/8.

"Oh Darling" and "This Boy" are written as 12/8.

"Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" is written as 3/4.

So first, is Norwegian Wood 6/8 or 12/8, and why this disagreement?

And do you all agree with the book on the time designations of the other three songs I listed above?

- - -

Last edited by Mellow_D; 05-04-2013 at 08:57 AM.
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  #39  
Old 05-04-2013, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
In case anyone is not familiar with this book: The Beatles Complete Scores (1993)

Hal Leonard's "The BEATLES Complete Scores" has Norwegian Wood as 12/8.

"Oh Darling" and "This Boy" are written as 12/8.

"Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" is written as 3/4.

So first, is Norwegian Wood 6/8 or 12/8, and why this disagreement?

And do you all agree with the book on the time designations of the other three songs I listed above?

- - -
Hi Mellow_D...

My gigging partner & I do an instrumental arrangement of Norwegian Wood.

I feel it (and arranged it) in 12/8 and it has to do with the length of the phrasing. We do it as an easy "4" with triplet feel not a driving "2" (like an Irish Reel).

I don't see 6/8 or 12/8 as disagreeing, but different ways of feeling the tempo (same song can be arranged differently). Ours is done as an easy jazz piece, instead of a driving reel (like Riverdance).

Playing/thinking in 4 (versus 2) implies relaxed when I play/arrange pieces. When I want to push things, I feel them (and arrange them) in 2.

My own imagery is the difference between leaning back & relaxing and playing leisurely versus leaning forward intensely and driving a Mac truck through a song.


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  #40  
Old 05-04-2013, 10:04 AM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi Mellow_D...

My gigging partner & I do an instrumental arrangement of Norwegian Wood.

I feel it (and arranged it) in 12/8 and it has to do with the length of the phrasing. We do it as an easy "4" with triplet feel not a driving "2" (like an Irish Reel).

I don't see 6/8 or 12/8 as disagreeing, but different ways of feeling the tempo (same song can be arranged differently). Ours is done as an easy jazz piece, instead of a driving reel (like Riverdance).

Playing/thinking in 4 (versus 2) implies relaxed when I play/arrange pieces. When I want to push things, I feel them (and arrange them) in 2.

My own imagery is the difference between leaning back & relaxing and playing leisurely versus leaning forward intensely and driving a Mac truck through a song.


Going through the book, I also found that "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" is written as 4/4. Is that right? Doesn't sound right to me, when I listen to the song.

And here's something "interesting" ... according to the book, "Yer Blues" has both 12/8 and 6/8?


---
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  #41  
Old 05-04-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
Going through the book, I also found that "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" is written as 4/4. Is that right? Doesn't sound right to me, when I listen to the song.

And here's something "interesting" ... according to the book, "Yer Blues" has both 12/8 and 6/8?


---
Hi M-D...

I hear 'You've Got To Hide Away' as either 6/8 or 12/8 depending on the phrasing. It's certainly not 4/4. I hear it as 12/8 (slow 4 feel with triplets)

You've Got To - Click


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  #42  
Old 05-04-2013, 10:21 AM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ombudsman View Post
kick 2 3 snare 2 3 kick 2 3 snare 2 3....
kick and snare ... aren't those drum terms?

What do they mean and what's the signficiance of kick versus snare, so far as where you place them (the kick preceding the first 2 3 but the snare preceding the next 2 3 in the pattern in the quotation box above)?

- - -
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  #43  
Old 05-04-2013, 11:33 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
kick and snare ... aren't those drum terms?

What do they mean and what's the signficiance of kick versus snare, so far as where you place them (the kick preceding the first 2 3 but the snare preceding the next 2 3 in the pattern in the quotation box above)?

- - -
Kick usually marks beats 1 and 3 and snare marks beats 2 and 4. Placement of snare in particular is usually a good guide as to metre (time sig) - that's how one often differentiates one bar of 6/8 from two bars of 3/4.

In this case ombudsman was describing 12/8 time:
Code:
One bar of 12/8:
8th notes: x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x  
Beats      1   .   .   2   .   .   3   .   .   4   .   .  
         "kick(2   3)snare(2   3) kick(2   3)snare(2   3)"
As lj says, this could easily be written as two bars of 6/8; at least if the second half of the bar is no different from the first half.
The "(2 3)" between kick and snare are counting the 8ths, the triplets between the beats. There are only 4 beats in one bar of 12/8.
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  #44  
Old 05-04-2013, 11:42 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi M-D...

I hear 'You've Got To Hide Away' as either 6/8 or 12/8 depending on the phrasing. It's certainly not 4/4. I hear it as 12/8 (slow 4 feel with triplets)

You've Got To - Click

Alan Pollack has it as 3/4! (Ie treating each triplet as a whole 3-beat bar); probably because of the harmonic rhythm, and maybe the subdivisions (8ths in 3/4, 16ths in 6/8)
I tend to agree with you, it's more like 6/8 or 12/8, because of the off-beats which put the groups of 3 in pairs.

He calls Norwegian Wood "3/4 (6/8)" - meaning not that those two are equivalent (!), but that the 3/4 bars could be heard as two pairs of 3/8, forming 6/8 bars.
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  #45  
Old 05-04-2013, 10:33 PM
ombudsman ombudsman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
kick and snare ... aren't those drum terms?

What do they mean and what's the signficiance of kick versus snare, so far as where you place them (the kick preceding the first 2 3 but the snare preceding the next 2 3 in the pattern in the quotation box above)?

- - -
yes I am describing a simple, representative drum pattern that illustrates these time signatures as they are used in songs you can relate to so you can hear the difference. (I put the pattern down twice so that the repetition was obvious, it's not intended to be a single bar with 12 beats.) Just imagine how it would sound as you count it out.
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