First transcription attempt

[Pine]

I’m just beginning to go beyond basic rhythm playing. A song I’m learning is “Sugaree” as covered by Reina Del Cid. Here’s a link to the song on YouTube https://youtu.be/qmtANpHx3ZQ.

I’ve determined the song structure (chords) to be:

Intro - 8 bars
B - E - B - E - B - E - B - E

Verse - 8 bars
B - E - B - E - B - E - B - E

Pre-Chorus 8 Bars
F#m - C#m - A - E - B - C#m - A - E

Chorus - 8 Bars
B - E - C#m - A - B - E - C#m - A

Solo’s - 8 Bars each - Not transcribed yet

Outro - 8 Bars
B - E - C#m - A - B - E - C#m - A - B

So to my question. What key is this in? The chords fit in the key of E very well, but the song starts and ends on B. When I play the B scale over the song, it fits better than E. (to my ear). But if it’s in B, which I think it is, I’m confused by the F#m and the A chords, especially in the pre-chorus.

Determining the key is harder than I thought it would be. I'm afraid I know just enough theory to be dangerous.

[reeve21]

Hi Pine,

I'm not much on theory, but I'll take a guess and give you a bump back to the top where someone who knows may see it

I'm going to say E. Don't be fooled by it starting in B, the Dead often began on the 4 chord or in this case the 5.

If it is in E the numbering system in the pre-chorus that has you wondering is minor second, minor sixth, four, one, five, minor sixth, four, one. The order may not be typical for a song in E, but as you say those are the chords you would expect in that key. The F# and A are part of what some call harmonizing the scale in that key. That system is major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, diminished for steps 1 through 7. F# and A chords don't really fit that way of looking at things if you want to call it the key of B (they are a minor fifth and a major seventh in the key of B).

Hope that helps.

[rick-slo]

Yep, E major.

[Pine]

E makes more sense, as the chords fit perfectly. The song begins and ends on B, which usually means that is the key, and when I played the B and E Ionian scales over the song, the tonal center seemed to favor B, so I was really confused. I'll try it again in the morning in E to see if my ears have "reset".

Thanks for your help!

Craig

[JonPR]

The "scale" is E major. The "key" is B.

That is - to my ears - the key centre of the verse is clearly B, a common I-IV alternation. Obviously it could be V-I in E, but the melodic phrases and guitar licks all target the B.

Obviously if you think "B major", then the A in the pre-chorus and chorus is "out of key". But that only makes it a mixolydian bVII chord. It does make the key centre a little more ambiguous - suggesting it could be E - but that B is so strong in my ears by that point that I hear the A as bVII. (It's "in key", if you call the "B mixolydian mode.")

Still - this is merely an academic point! It's of zero concern to a musician playing it. Learn the chords, learn the notes, play them. Who cares what the "key" is? If your ear doesn't tell you, it doesn't matter.

You don't even need to know the scale, if you know the chords - the scale is all there under your fingers in the chords!

No offence to present company, but it always amazes me when people who know how to play all the chords still ask what the "key" is, or what "scale" to play - as if it's some other mysterious collection of notes outside of what's in the melody and the chords!

I appreciate that some may know chord shapes in only one neck region, and want to solo higher up the neck, where they don't know chord shapes - so they ask for "scales", so they can apply whatever patterns they've learned. But it's never a good idea to improvise with scale patterns if you don't know how they fit the chords. It will sound crap - unless your ear is very good. Safer (and easier and sounds better) to solo around the chord shapes you know.
If you do know how the scale fits the chords - you know the notes in your pattern, or the chord shapes in it - fine, but then that means you do know the chords in that position. Which, in turn, means you don't need the scale patterns, because you have the chord shapes (arpeggios).

I.e., the better you know the chords (in various neck positions) the less you need scales. The fewer ways you know to play the chords, the less use you can make of scales. IOW, there's no point in learning scales if you don't also learn the chords within them. And - to repeat myself - if you learn the chords, then you don't need the scales.
Scales are really nothing but collections of chord tones. It's the chords (and melodies) that make sense of the scales.

The melody, btw - including any guitar licks you can pick up - is the best place to start with improvisation. Notice how the lead guitarist here is using chord shapes, licks based on the chord tones. She's not playing scales, and that's why she sounds good. (You could say she's playing "major pentatonic" licks, but again that's the chord tones with 2 passing notes from neighbouring chords.)

[reeve21]

JonPR--Very helpful analysis!

My ears hear it differently, especially in the B-E intro (at least in the Grateful Dead versions, I've not listened to the cover linked to in Pine's post).

I hear tension in the first B chord, and then a descending guitar lick to a release/resolution on the E chord. Which makes me think the key is E. I haven't analyzed the solos which you say point towards it being in the key of B.

But as you say, it doesn't really matter

I like how you put the scales into context of the chords. As you say, " The melody, btw - including any guitar licks you can pick up - is the best place to start with improvisation" which pretty well defines how Jerry Garcia played. At times I hear him running a scale for an instant, almost as a placeholder, while he collects himself for his next melodic/chord tone based idea.

Good stuff, thanks for your thoughts

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by reeve21

JonPR--Very helpful analysis!

My ears hear it differently, especially in the B-E intro (at least in the Grateful Dead versions, I've not listened to the cover linked to in Pine's post).

FWIW I hear it as B in the Dead version too. It maybe a little more ambiguous in the intro, but once the vocal starts I hear phrase endings as the tonic (B whether on the B or E chord).
In the pre-chorus, there is more of a sense of E as key centre following that A chord, but it comes to B in the end - again only IMO (I quite agree about the subjectivity of this! ).

Check out that cover, btw, it's cool. I think I actually like her lead guitar intro better than Garcia's! Beautifully sung by Reina del Cid too.

[Chipotle]

Some songs are definitely ambiguous. I've written some that way. This one isn't, IMO. It's definitely in B.

I think you can get too carried away in the minutia, focusing too closely on a few chords here or there, or a particular melodic run, or a scale you might play over a certain passage. Many songs--good songs--can stray a bit from the key, whether in passing to add flavor, or with a true modulation. But they usually come back to "home".

The verse and end of the chorus very clearly come home to B. Don't get thrown by that F#m and A--yes, they're not "in" the key, but add a nice harmonic twist before things resolve back to the B. When finding the key, you have to look at the bigger picture.

[Pine]

Originally Posted by JonPR

SNIP

Check out that cover, btw, it's cool. I think I actually like her lead guitar intro better than Garcia's! Beautifully sung by Reina del Cid too.

It was Toni's lead playing in the intro that inspired me to start learning a bit of lead. They have quite a few covers on youtube. Definitely worth checking them out.

Reina Del Cid https://youtu.be/qmtANpHx3ZQ

Another cover I really like of theirs is Jambalaya. You need a YouTube account to see it (to prove your age) as it was filmed on railroad tracks. People complained it was too dangerous for kids to watch.

Thanks Jon for your earlier analysis of the key. It's beyond my understanding at this time, but I'll get there some day.