Taylor Expression System replacement

[AlRob]

I love my Taylor 414CE but I'm not in love at all with the Expression System. I find it has a peculiar metallic sound to it, especially when playing single notes. I've tried many things to "correct" the sound, but I've failed. The sound of the ES has been frustrating to me playing live. I'm considering having the ES removed and another pickup system installed. Has anyone done this? What pickups have you had installed?
Has anyone been able to incorporate the existing ES vol and tone knobs into a new pickup system? If this is possible i think it would be great because I like their convenience and placement on the guitar.
I appreciate the help. I'm new to this forum so I'm not sure if these questions have been addressed here.

[Side Man]

Originally Posted by AlRob

I love my Taylor 414CE but I'm not in love at all with the Expression System. I find it has a peculiar metallic sound to it, especially when playing single notes. I've tried many things to "correct" the sound, but I've failed. The sound of the ES has been frustrating to me playing live. I'm considering having the ES removed and another pickup system installed. Has anyone done this? What pickups have you had installed?
Has anyone been able to incorporate the existing ES vol and tone knobs into a new pickup system? If this is possible i think it would be great because I like their convenience and placement on the guitar.
I appreciate the help. I'm new to this forum so I'm not sure if these questions have been addressed here.

http://mi-si.com/2011/01/22/align-xt/

Welcome aboard. This replacement system comes complete with vol & tone pots that will replace the the preamp in your 414CE. I'm sure others will weigh in with more options for you.

[MikeTX]

Hi Al, welcome...

I had a late 2006 615-CE with the older 2-AA ES, hated it, factory updated to the 2007 9V ES, hated IT too, and had my luthier replace it with the B-Band A211 pre-amp and undersaddle pickup - sounded GREAT! My distaste for the ES was same as yours - the metallic, un-natural sound - completely NOT what the literature makes you think.

Honest though, I had problems with the B-Band - the undersaddle ribbon after a little time became first pretty un-even, different strings different volumes, and finally some cut out altogether, very unstable. I had it replaced, but over time same problem, so I can't really recommend it.

I sold that guitar and got a more handsome 2008 615-CE, but without the ES. My dealer was able to get the knobs and end-pin battery pack from Taylor. This time I went with the Fishman Infinity Matrix system, and couldn't be happier - sounds fabulous! I had a special opportunity to get a modification to use the separate Bass & Treble controls, instead of the standard single Tone control, so it is 100% compatable with the Taylor 3-knobs and end pin 9V power. Depends on your luthier, but it can absolutely be done - living proof here... but EVEN if you had to go with the soundhole controls, the Fishman is great, IN MY opinion.

For the many who like their ES as much as I detest what I had, I'm happy they are happy, I'm proud we live in a country where we can enjoy and respect different opinions, but like the Big Bopper - I KNOW WHAT I LIKE!

Best luck with your Taylor - I love mine! Mike

[MikeTX]

Cool - that MI-SI alternative sure looks worth looking into!

[AlRob]

Thanks guys for the information.
MikeTX: So your Taylor is now fitted with the Infinity Matrix and you've been able to use the 3 ES knobs and the end pin jack and battery holder? So normally you only have one tone control knob with the Infinity Matrix? Thats sound great. Could I ship my guitar to your luthier? I don't know if I could find someone around here who knows how to do that. What kind of music are you playing? I Appreciate the help.

[root5150]

For what it's worth, I am a passionate Taylor guitar fan. I own 6 and love them all. That being said, I have been disappointed in the expression system. It's good, but not great. I have actually replaced the ES in my sinker redwood GS Custom with an LR Baggs Anthem series which is amazing. Sad that I still have three ES knobs that basically function as hole covers though. With all of the high quality that Taylor offers you would think they could do a little better on their proprietary pick up system or at least make it in a version that doesn't require holes being drilled or cut in expensive tone woods.

[kscobie8]

Originally Posted by root5150

For what it's worth, I am a passionate Taylor guitar fan. I own 6 and love them all. That being said, I have been disappointed in the expression system. It's good, but not great. I have actually replaced the ES in my sinker redwood GS Custom with an LR Baggs Anthem series which is amazing. Sad that I still have three ES knobs that basically function as hole covers though. With all of the high quality that Taylor offers you would think they could do a little better on their proprietary pick up system or at least make it in a version that doesn't require holes being drilled or cut in expensive tone woods.

There are countless Taylor owners that find the Expression System to be a great pickup system. They have tweaked it here and there over the years to perfect it, but it really is considered to be a good system, despite what internet forums may say.

And Taylor does offer a version that doesn't require the 3 knob holes to be drilled in the upper bout.


Bel isi,
-kyle

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by kscobie8

There are countless Taylor owners that find the Expression System to be a great pickup system. They have tweaked it here and there over the years to perfect it, but it really is considered to be a good system, despite what internet forums may say.

And Taylor does offer a version that doesn't require the 3 knob holes to be drilled in the upper bout.


Bel isi,
-kyle

Well, everyone is entitled to their view, and clearly their are people on this very forum who do not like it. I'm not in a position to comment in any depth its sound, but when I looked into buying a used Taylor a year or so ago, I was horrified by all the problems that the ES had thrown up during its 'development in production'. The very fact that it has been revamped and upgraded a number of times is testament to the problems that it has had. And, as we can see, there are those who still think that it still falls short of being a system worthy of upholding the Taylor name, so I personally would fall short of referring to it as being "perfected" now.

[Rick Shepherd]

Originally Posted by kscobie8

There are countless Taylor owners that find the Expression System to be a great pickup system. They have tweaked it here and there over the years to perfect it, but it really is considered to be a good system, despite what internet forums may say.

And Taylor does offer a version that doesn't require the 3 knob holes to be drilled in the upper bout.


Bel isi,
-kyle

To be sure, there are countless numbers, but that is not what is being discussed here.

[royd]

Originally Posted by steveyam

The very fact that it has been revamped and upgraded a number of times is testament to the problems that it has had.

that is an unfair criticism... as almost every single system out there is constantly being upgraded. By a guitar with a fishman installed today and it likely is not the same system that would have been installed 10 years ago... and if it is, you'll likely feel cheated. Buy a new Martin with a pickup installed and it will not be the same as the one they installed in '01. So Taylor has upgraded their system twice after using it to replace the Fishman systems. That sounds like they are constantly trying to improve it and they had a vision for the system that went in a different direction than a UTS based system like the Fishman.

now, whether any individual likes any given system is another issue and is clearly the issue for the OP... Some folk just hate UTS based systems while others hate magnetic pups. He (she?) doesn't like the ES. That is fine... so how to go about swapping it is the question. MikeTX's solution and the Mi-Si system seem to be possibilities...

[leeasam]

I have owned the earlier 3v versions and now the latest 9v( 2010 and later) the latest if far superior in sound than previous versions. Best I have used. that includes the older Fishmans( which BTW had a BIG BARN DOOR HOLE cut into side of guitar and many other companies still use these including MARTIN)

If I found a used Taylor reasonable enough that had older system I would up grade it. I know that there is a dealer that many like on here that has a new 09 DN3e that I would not mind buying but still has 09 ES and will not pay same price as I could buy a new 2011. IMO there is that much of a difference.

[Trinity]

Did not read all the replies so this may have been stated. I am a authorized Taylor warranty tech. I have run into this and there can be several causes. The easy one to check is that nothing metal is attached to the pick up sensors. A broke string end is the most common. The ball end is steel and will stick to the magnets ans mess up the tone. On older systems the oil in the sensor can leak. you can see this as a stain on the top or the back of the guitar under the pick up. Another place that can cause this is the neck pick up. There are two coils there and if on is bad you will get a thin tone. That would need to be checked by a tech. Lets hope it is the string ball on the sensor. Good luck.
As a side note never use steel wool to clean you fret board. The small fibers will attache to the neck pick up and if any get inside they will stick to the body sensors.
I have a spring limited all mahogany ga and love the ES system in it.
Jim Holler

[kscobie8]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

To be sure, there are countless numbers, but that is not what is being discussed here.

The discussion is organic. I was simply responding to an opinion made by root5150, who revived an "old" thread with his post.


Bel isi,
-kyle

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by steveyam

... The very fact that it has been revamped and upgraded a number of times is testament to the problems that it has had.

So a desire to continually improve a product will be construed by some as proof that it is problem ridden. I don't recall anyone ever trying to argue that Volkswagen's policy of continual improvement of the Beetle was "testament to the problems it had".

While the initial upgrade to the first generation ES addressed issues that only surfaced in the field, later changes were merely refinements to a successful design. For example, redesigning the preamp so that it uses individual components instead of less expensive integrated circuits was not a fix to a problem nor a cost saving move, it was done for the sake of system refinement.

[Rick Shepherd]

Originally Posted by kscobie8

The discussion is organic. I was simply responding to an opinion made by root5150, who revived an "old" thread with his post.


Bel isi,
-kyle

I thought this thread was supposed to be about expression system replacement options, not a rehash of the same "old" thread.