Adjust truss rod vs. raise nut vs. raise saddle

[murrmac123]

Just to say that I don't consider it a crime against humanity to knock out the nut, glue a shim of same material to said nut, file and sand until joint is invisible , replace nut and recut slots.

Do feel free to explain why I am mistaken ...

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Do feel free to explain why I am mistaken ...

You've begged the question: you may not be mistaken.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Just to say that I don't consider it a crime against humanity to knock out the nut, glue a shim of same material to said nut, file and sand until joint is invisible , replace nut and recut slots.

Do feel free to explain why I am mistaken ...

Other than it might just be faster, easier, and more cost effective to just cut a new nut, specially on a job like this where a pre-shaped nut would probably suffice?

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

When I set up a guitar, I'll set the relief of the neck first, THEN adjust the saddle and finally the nut. I've fixed a a few guitars where it seemed the previous tech would change a saddle or nut and set the action WITHOUT checking the neck relief first; then when the neck is properly adjusted the saddle or nut ends up being too low and shims are used.

If the first four frets are buzzing it's possible that the neck is either too straight or maybe even slight upbow. If so, the saddle will have to be set higher to eliminate buzzing. Then if you drop tune, the neck will straighten out or backbow more (due to the decreased tension) and it will buzz more.

That's the way I do it, agreed 100%. It's not rocket science. It's lower level physics and common sense. Oh, and a bit of experience

[bluepat]

Hmmm, fret buzz on low E, high E, A & B, but only when fretted from 1 to 4... My guess is you have one or more frets slightly rising at each end (effectively straightening) as a result of the fretboard drying (shrinking)

Any tech worth his salt could confirm that by using a feeler gauge under the suspect frets; I see it all the time here in Alberta...

[NurseLuthier]

"shims" the nut...THEN files the slots? Sooooo....what your saying is that he "shimmed" the nut....then realized he set the action too high so he filed the slots deeper to cover his mistake. Right....this dude is NOT a luthier....he's a hack.

[NurseLuthier]

Personally I would remove said "shimmed" nut and start over. No it is not a crime against humanity to shim up a nut.....but I would only do that in the case of having a very vintage instrument that was all original. Otherwise, it's just easier to replace the thing. I've learned for previous experience that adding pieces can create more problems that it solves, and with the plethora of readily available blanks and pre-cut nuts and saddles of all different shapes, sizes, and materials....replacing them is just a no brainer. I have a few blocks of Corian, a few bone blanks and several pre-cut nuts and saddles in my toolbox at all times for just such an occasion.

[ii Cybershot ii]

Originally Posted by leatherlunch

@Everyone - so even though I'm going to turn this over to a pro, what's the final conclusion here? I've been seeing mixed information.

If fret buzz occurs when fretting a string, changing the nuts height won't have any effect, correct? However, I've seen people here say that saddle height won't have any effect either. I've also read here people on both sides (apparently) of the adjusting the truss rod fence, some saying you should only aim to have it perfectly straight and then adjust other things (like what?), while some seem to indicate that a slight up-bow adjustment would help remove buzz.

I can see how this thread would be confusing because there are a lot of terms thrown around and I have seen several posts where people wrote "nut" when they meant to write "saddle" and vise versa. Let me try to clear the air a bit for you.

The nut is ONLY responsible for buzzing on open strings. Secondly and to answer your original question, the nut also only effects tone on open strings (assuming it is structurally sound and we aren't talking about back buzz).

As others have said, the first step is checking relief and adjusting it to taste. Preferably the straighter the better. However your neck might be too straight or even back-bowed. Your buzzing issue may simply be a neck relief issue.

The second thing to set is the nut slot height. This is mainly a playability issue, if you go too low you will get buzzing on the open strings.

Finally, saddle height. If your action is too low at the saddle, you will get buzzing.



To summarize:

-Get the neck relief set right, set your nut action, and then get your action set from the SADDLE.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

To summarize:

-Get the neck relief set right, set your nut action, and then get your action set from the SADDLE.

I'm 100% with you on this one, but several others prefer to lower the saddle first and some vehement opinions against the above order have been expressed. More than one way to skin a cat, I say, if the outcome is the same.

[ii Cybershot ii]

Originally Posted by HCG Canada

I'm 100% with you on this one, but several others prefer to lower the saddle first and some vehement opinions against the above order have been expressed. More than one way to skin a cat, I say, if the outcome is the same.

Yea I have run across this out in the world as well. The reason I believe it is proper to do the nut first is because when setting your action, changing height at the nut changes height at the 12th fret more than changing height of the saddle changes the action at the nut. Check the difference of height at the 12th fret normally vs height at the 13th with a capo on the 1st and you'll see what I mean. So if you do the saddle first and get your perfect action, then change the height at the nut, all of a sudden your action can get too low and you will have some unnecessary buzzing, and you will have to shim the saddle. It's much harder to have this problem if you do the nut first, as changing the height of the saddle barely effects the height at the nut. Of course it's always a good idea to give yourself about .002" of extra height at the nut because the slots will wear over time.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

Yea I have run across this out in the world as well. The reason I believe it is proper to do the nut first is because when setting your action, changing height at the nut changes height at the 12th fret more than changing height of the saddle changes the action at the nut. Check the difference of height at the 12th fret normally vs height at the 13th with a capo on the 1st and you'll see what I mean. So if you do the saddle first and get your perfect action, then change the height at the nut, all of a sudden your action can get too low and you will have some unnecessary buzzing, and you will have to shim the saddle. It's much harder to have this problem if you do the nut first, as changing the height of the saddle barely effects the height at the nut. Of course it's always a good idea to give yourself about .002" of extra height at the nut because the slots will wear over time.

Interesting points, though I don't totally agree. The string-fret gap measurements of the current setup and wanted setup would be enough to determine appoximately how much can be removed at the saddle, since all three will move proportionately. Of course since there's some relief on the neck, this will leave the saddle ever so slightly high, which is fine since it too may wear with play. Basically: If you know how much you need to remove at the nut, you should fit the saddle so that the action at the 12th fret is half that measurement plus the target action height, before you finish the nut. Unless of course you do it on feel, which admittedly I do on all my stuff (but not my clients.)

[John Arnold]

If it is only buzzing on the first four frets, you probably don't have enough relief.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

...changing height at the nut changes height at the 12th fret more than changing height of the saddle changes the action at the nut.

If the nut is 1mm high, and with no other adjustments, if the nut is lowered 1mm, it will drop the 12th fret action 0.5mm.

Conversely, if the saddle is lowered 1mm and nothing else is change, this will also lower the 12th fret action 0.5mm since the 12th fret is 'equidistant' between the nut & saddle. (Not 100% equidistant due to intonation compensation, but the extra couple mm of saddle compensation will not change the relationship to 12th fret action significantly.)

[donh]

Originally Posted by HCG Canada

If the nut is 1mm high, and with no other adjustments, if the nut is lowered 1mm, it will drop the 12th fret action 0.5mm.

Conversely, if the saddle is lowered 1mm and nothing else is change, this will also lower the 12th fret action 0.5mm since the 12th fret is 'equidistant' between the nut & saddle. (Not 100% equidistant due to intonation compensation, but the extra couple mm of saddle compensation will not change the relationship to 12th fret action significantly.)

Ned,

Please re-read what Cybershot actually wrote. What you wrote above is, of course, true - however, it has little or nothing to do with what Cybershot was saying when you quoted him.

Cybershot's logic is impeccable. Others may disagree, but they are much more likely to engineer themselves into a hole!

[Ed422]

Originally Posted by NurseLuthier

"shims" the nut...THEN files the slots? Sooooo....what your saying is that he "shimmed" the nut....then realized he set the action too high so he filed the slots deeper to cover his mistake. Right....this dude is NOT a luthier....he's a hack.

It very well could be that the nut slots were cut too deep. To remedy this, the nut would be shimmed up. Then the slots would have to be recut to the proper depth.

Probably the better solution would be a new nut (sans shim), but the above solution is workable (and most likely less expensive). Depending on the value of the guitar or the amount the customer expected to spend, it could be the 'right' solution.

Ed