Help with fingerpicking

[Bryan T]

Originally Posted by David Hilyard

On getting the thumb and fingers to play independently is something everyone struggles with.

A big "a ha" moment for a lot of my students is recognizing that you aren't developing independence between the fingers. Rather, you are developing a broad set of dependence.

One set of exercises that is very helpful is this:

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The idea is to keep the arpeggio going with the fingers as quarter notes, but move the beat where you play the thumb stroke. Then move the thumb stroke to the "and" of each of the beat. Then do multiple thumb strokes. Then vary the arpeggio.

Lots of combinations and each one will force you to learn a new type of dependence.

Bryan

[Coke_zero]

Thanks everyone for the time to put so much help on the thread. Every little helps.

Originally Posted by Bryan T

A big "a ha" moment for a lot of my students is recognizing that you aren't developing independence between the fingers. Rather, you are developing a broad set of dependence.

One set of exercises that is very helpful is this:

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The idea is to keep the arpeggio going with the fingers as quarter notes, but move the beat where you play the thumb stroke. Then move the thumb stroke to the "and" of each of the beat. Then do multiple thumb strokes. Then vary the arpeggio.

Lots of combinations and each one will force you to learn a new type of dependence.

Bryan

I jst tried this and I nearly gnawed off my thumb. I will try tomorrow as it is 2am here now and I think I have burnt out after playing on/off for the last 5 hours or so.

[Bryan T]

Originally Posted by Coke_zero

I jst tried this and I nearly gnawed off my thumb.

Keep it up!

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by Bryan T

A big "a ha" moment for a lot of my students is recognizing that you aren't developing independence between the fingers. Rather, you are developing a broad set of dependence.

I think independence is still the goal, though we develop lots of different dependencies along the way

[Bryan T]

Originally Posted by mmmaak

I think independence is still the goal, though we develop lots of different dependencies along the way

Can you come up with an example where the thumb and fingers are independent? Any normal rhythmic variation (quarters, eighths, triplets, sixteenths, quintuplets, polyrhythms, etc.) can be learned as dependence - even things that are quite complex. I've been working on these 7:3 polyrhythms recently and even though they sound complex, I'm still focusing on the interrelatedness to make sense of them.

I've only seen a few drummers that come close to independence. I remember one drummer that could keep a rhythm with his right hand and feet and then play against it in any different tempo with his left hand. Absolutely blew my mind.


It is pretty embarrassing the number of fingerstyle players who can't play the tab example I posted above. They get so locked in that the thumb is on the one and the three that they can't do anything else. And I see that example as a very basic stepping stone in developing the right hand.

Bryan

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by Bryan T

Can you come up with an example where the thumb and fingers are independent? Any normal rhythmic variation (quarters, eighths, triplets, sixteenths, quintuplets, polyrhythms, etc.) can be learned as dependence - even things that are quite complex.

Well, strictly speaking, I'm not sure if true independence exists, or even how it could be proven to be so even if we found it. Make the person play every possible musical sequence?

Perhaps I should have used the term practical independence which I think of as more of a "state of mind", i.e. being able to play complex sequences without consciously thinking about the mechanics involved. That probably coincides with a "broad set of dependencies", as you mentioned.

[Bryan T]

Originally Posted by mmmaak

Perhaps I should have used the term practical independence which I think of as more of a "state of mind", i.e. being able to play complex sequences without consciously thinking about the mechanics involved. That probably coincides with a "broad set of dependencies", as you mentioned.

That's exactly what I was getting at.

I've had a lot of frustrated students who attempt to learn a fingerstyle piece by learning the thumb part and then the fingers part. Then they try to combine them and don't understand why it isn't coming together easily. "But I can do them separately without any issues!"

Bryan

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by Bryan T

I've had a lot of frustrated students who attempt to learn a fingerstyle piece by learning the thumb part and then the fingers part. Then they try to combine them and don't understand why it isn't coming together easily. "But I can do them separately without any issues!"

While certainly not applicable to every case, I think learning the bassline separately can be beneficial for pieces with a recurring underlying "theme" (and especially those that involve both downstrokes and upstrokes of the thumb). At least, that's how I learned Pete Huttlinger's arrangement of "Superstition". Would you suggest learning the melody and bassline "as a whole" is more effective? (something for me to think of if I ever have a student advanced enough to learn it)

[David Hilyard]

Originally Posted by Bryan T

Can you come up with an example where the thumb and fingers are independent? Any normal rhythmic variation (quarters, eighths, triplets, sixteenths, quintuplets, polyrhythms, etc.) can be learned as dependence - even things that are quite complex. I've been working on these 7:3 polyrhythms recently and even though they sound complex, I'm still focusing on the interrelatedness to make sense of them.

I've only seen a few drummers that come close to independence. I remember one drummer that could keep a rhythm with his right hand and feet and then play against it in any different tempo with his left hand. Absolutely blew my mind.


It is pretty embarrassing the number of fingerstyle players who can't play the tab example I posted above. They get so locked in that the thumb is on the one and the three that they can't do anything else. And I see that example as a very basic stepping stone in developing the right hand.

Bryan

That's an interesting take on it. I never thought of it as "dependent". I still don't. I just played that set of arpeggios. You're controlling your thumb to play at a different place in the arpeggio. I call that independence.

I've taken workshops with Pierre Bensusan where he spends a lot of time teaching finger independence. He's teaching exercises similar to yours only more intricate, and calling out changes as everyone plays. That requires independent control of your digits, I think.

I'd bet Tommy Emmanuel would not say that he's been working 50 years on finger "dependence" to play an arrangement like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYzajpeAWuA

Martin Taylor is using finger independence here, IMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrJ7Gq394hk

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by Bryan T

It is pretty embarrassing the number of fingerstyle players who can't play the tab example I posted above. They get so locked in that the thumb is on the one and the three that they can't do anything else. And I see that example as a very basic stepping stone in developing the right hand.

I don't doubt that, and I think the prevalence of Travis picking is partly to blame. Many players have been programmed to use their thumbs only for on-beats. Finger democracy is key to any sufficiently complex fingerstyle arrangement.

Originally Posted by Bryan T

And I see that example as a very basic stepping stone in developing the right hand.

ahhh, the right hand. Who was it again who said "Your left hand is what you know, your right hand is who you are"?. How very true!

[Bryan T]

Originally Posted by David Hilyard

That's an interesting take on it. I never thought of it as "dependent". I still don't. I just played that set of arpeggios. You're controlling your thumb to play at a different place in the arpeggio. I call that independence.

I think it sounds like independence, but the mechanics of learning to do it are very much dependent. "Oh, I need to move the thumb to the 2. What else happens on the 2? Oh, my middle finger plays. I'll just have the thumb play when the middle finger plays." After the first few dozen times, it becomes muscle memory and you don't have to think about it.

That's how I learned to do these things, at least.

I've taken workshops with Pierre Bensusan where he spends a lot of time teaching finger independence. He's teaching exercises similar to yours only more intricate, and calling out changes as everyone plays. That requires independent control of your digits, I think.

I've taken classes with him, too. We spent a lot of time going over the mechanics of doing it. Very much from a learned dependence mindset, in my opinion.

I'd bet Tommy Emmanuel would not say that he's been working 50 years on finger "dependence" to play an arrangement like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYzajpeAWuA

Again, I think that is a great example of learned dependence. If I were working that out, I would focus on what has to happen at the same time. "Oh, this bass note lines up with that melody note." Practice it enough and it sounds independent.

This is one of aspect of guitar playing that seems a lot more complicated than it is to folks who are just starting out. If you break it down to the base elements and figure out which things need to line up, I think it is easier to do than trying to tackle it all at once.

Bryan

[Bryan T]

Originally Posted by mmmaak

Would you suggest learning the melody and bassline "as a whole" is more effective?

I think the two parts need to be considered both individually and together. They need to be considered individually so that you can say, "Ah, this is what the listener should be hearing in this voice." And they need to be considered together to figure out how to practically play it.

Something like a Stevie Wonder tune would need a lot of attention on the bass line and the clavinet part in order to bring them out in the arrangement.

Bryan

[David Hilyard]

Bryan,

I get your point about dependence. If all you are trying to do is "cement" a particular set of notes into your muscle memory, so you play it that way every time, then it's "dependent". If you have the ability to vary an order of notes, by commanding a finger or thumb to play out of an order that may be in your muscle memory, on the spot, improvising as it were, it's "independent". It's my impression that that was what Pierre was getting at with those exercises; not creating several sets of muscle memory motions, but having independent control of each digit so you can play any order, on command. I guess we took different things away from the workshop. But, that's cool.

[Bryan T]

Originally Posted by David Hilyard

having independent control of each digit so you can play any order, on command.

That is certainly the ideal. I don't think I've met/heard a guitarist who could actually do that beyond what I've been calling learned dependence. Lots of players are really good at learned dependence and can trick the listener, but I can't think of any who have truly independent digits.

Earlier, I mentioned a drummer that could play in two different tempi at the same time. That, to me, is an example of independence. The hands are doing things that are unrelated.

I also mentioned working on polyrhythms. Playing a septuplet against a pulse isn't hard. Playing a triplet against a pulse isn't hard. Now play 7:3 against that pulse. If you have independence, I think it should be pretty easy. If you find yourself working through the logic of where the two subdivisions line up, and internalizing that, then you are working at learned dependence. Ultimately, it sounds the same to the listener, but the mechanics of developing the skill are different.

I get the sense that you think I'm pushing developing a set of patterns. I kind of am (more like motions), but it is a very large set of learned dependencies. I think Pierre was pushing for the students to a) broaden their palette of what they might want to hear/play and b) develop the mechanics to pull it off. In the class that I did with him he approached this very much from a learned dependence perspective. "Now move the thumb to the same beat as the pinky finger."

This is a very interesting discussion.

Bryan

[David Hilyard]

Interesting discussion, indeed. When I think about the tunes I play where there are multiple moving lines, and how I learned them, I learned them just as you described. What has to happen at the same time and what has to happen in between, and I made my fingers do that until they didn't forget. I guess I see that as learned "independence". Not just to be contrary, though. I'm making lines happen that are independent of one another, in that they have their own direction and flow. But ask me to play each one separately, and I'd fall flat, at least on first try, because that's not how I learned it. But I just chalk that up to my lack of ability.

Maybe Martin Taylor, and Tommy and Pierre and Stanley Jordan, and Pete Huttlinger and Phil Keaggy, etc. all learn dependence, it sure sounds like independence. Your point.

Whatever it is, it's cool to be able to play multiple lines at once.