Counting Out Loud

River Hill · #1 12-14-2015, 01:37 PM

What are your thoughts on counting out loud to maintain time when practicing? I had a friend tell me to try this and it was much harder then I thought. He suggested counting out loud first then switching to a metronome.

In short my rhythm and timing are off.

Cameron_Talley · #2 12-14-2015, 01:45 PM

As a trumpet player, I usually tap my foot. Have you tried that? If you have a smartphone there are lots of metronome apps that you could use, as well.

jseth · #3 12-14-2015, 02:21 PM

REALLY NOT A GOOD HABIT to form, in any sense... counting internally to start a piece or a song? Sure... but even counting WHILE you are playing is going to make it impossible to give any sort of "life" to what you play, and makes it next to impossible to actually play a piece correctly...

mr. beaumont · #4 12-14-2015, 02:50 PM

See no reason for that. Tap a foot.

Pualee · #5 12-14-2015, 02:53 PM

Foot tapping is boring.

Get a guitar strap and dance.

I'm semi-serious

Give it a shot.

BFD · #6 12-15-2015, 11:05 AM

Most musicians who make a living playing or teaching music will tell you a metronome is a great practice tool. Learning to count out loud before using one sounds silly to me; just get a metronome and get comfortable using it.

There are a variety of ways to use one, easiest is one beat per whole note (e.g. clicks on the 1,2,3 & 4 beats in 4/4 time). Lots of folks quickly move to using 2 clicks/bar (on the 1 & 3 beats); this gives you less rhythmic information and makes you more responsible for keeping a steady rhythm.

Here's a link to the last time I remember it being debated:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=404265

DupleMeter · #7 12-15-2015, 11:23 AM

it's a waste of time.

You can't guarantee your time is dead-on accurate (in fact I'll guarantee you that's it's not). Just use a metronome. It's the quickest way to solid time.

And yes, tap our foot.

;-)

JonPR · #8 12-15-2015, 11:44 AM

My 0.02$...

If your sense of time is not already pretty good, foot tapping won't help. What do you think is controlling your foot, other than your own sense of time?
What foot tapping does is help you play around the beat, feeling things like the placement of syncopations better - once you can keep a beat well in the first place. People who say foot tapping helps them mean this sort of thing. (It helps me, and this is what I mean.)

But if you can't stay in time with a beat to begin with, foot tapping won't help you with that. If you can't keep your strumming or picking in time, how will you keep your foot in time?

(especially if you're trying to do both at the same time?)

Counting out loud - I agree - won't help either. Even more so than foot tapping, you're involving an extra mental (and oral) activity in the same problem; making it harder for yourself, not easier.

A metronome is ideal for at least two reasons. First, its not under your control! Second, it doesn't give too much information. It makes you work to stay with it.
The idea is to train your own internal clock, to learn a sense of time that is (er) metronomic rather than organic. (Our human sense of time is flexible, it has different "gears", so our perception of time in the real world changes according to our mood or circumstances, usually without us being aware of it. That's not much good for playing music.)

So work with a metronome all the time, until you forget it's there (you're so in time with it you can't hear it any more). That takes you to level two: making it even harder! Halve the bpm, so it clicks on 1 and 3 or (more cool) on 2 and 4.

Classic advice and tips here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X1fhVLVF_4
(It gets a little silly after 5:00, but hey he's a funk bass player...)

Bucc5207 · #9 12-15-2015, 11:53 AM

Counting aloud is not so much about marking perfect time. It's more about getting rhythms right (one and two and trip-a-let four and ...) and making yourself aware of the down beat, etc. It's a useful tool for beginners, and I still do it sometimes when I'm working out a new piece with tricky rhythmic features. Like any other learning aid, use it if it helps but don't let it become a crutch. If it helps you, don't let anyone shame you into abandoning it.

Dalegreen · #10 12-16-2015, 12:28 PM

I do count out loud quite often, not while playing though. When I get a new chart and it is a foreign melody to me (and difficult), I will count thru the melody, then play it. That process does two things, it solidifies the melody phrasing and it also really enhances the sight reading process.
I have had to do it more than once prior to a gig with not much time to spare.

A good practice tip is to find yourself a more difficult recording of music that you would normally not play (ie. odd meter, different genre than you normally listen to)
Listen to it and count out loud while listening. You can really learn a lot about the song timing and your own timing

Earwitness · #11 12-16-2015, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPR

My 0.02$...

If your sense of time is not already pretty good, foot tapping won't help. What do you think is controlling your foot, other than your own sense of time?
What foot tapping does is help you play around the beat, feeling things like the placement of syncopations better - once you can keep a beat well in the first place. People who say foot tapping helps them mean this sort of thing. (It helps me, and this is what I mean.)

But if you can't stay in time with a beat to begin with, foot tapping won't help you with that. If you can't keep your strumming or picking in time, how will you keep your foot in time?

(especially if you're trying to do both at the same time?)

Counting out loud - I agree - won't help either. Even more so than foot tapping, you're involving an extra mental (and oral) activity in the same problem; making it harder for yourself, not easier.

A metronome is ideal for at least two reasons. First, its not under your control! Second, it doesn't give too much information. It makes you work to stay with it.
The idea is to train your own internal clock, to learn a sense of time that is (er) metronomic rather than organic. (Our human sense of time is flexible, it has different "gears", so our perception of time in the real world changes according to our mood or circumstances, usually without us being aware of it. That's not much good for playing music.)

So work with a metronome all the time, until you forget it's there (you're so in time with it you can't hear it any more). That takes you to level two: making it even harder! Halve the bpm, so it clicks on 1 and 3 or (more cool) on 2 and 4.

Classic advice and tips here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X1fhVLVF_4
(It gets a little silly after 5:00, but hey he's a funk bass player...)

Not sure I entirely agree. Foot-tapping translates internal rhythm into a simple up/down ankle motion. Much easier than mediating rhythm from brain through lots of muscles and ligaments from neck to fingertips, all while hugging a wooden box and coordinating two hands. The foot can be the cockswain; easier to call out rhythm with no oars in hand.

mr. beaumont · #12 12-16-2015, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucc5207

Counting aloud is not so much about marking perfect time. It's more about getting rhythms right (one and two and trip-a-let four and ...) and making yourself aware of the down beat, etc. It's a useful tool for beginners, and I still do it sometimes when I'm working out a new piece with tricky rhythmic features. Like any other learning aid, use it if it helps but don't let it become a crutch. If it helps you, don't let anyone shame you into abandoning it.

This I can see...I'll often sit down with a lead sheet and "sing" the rhythm if it looks tricky.

I just don't see too much value in stressing being able to do it WHILE you play.

JonPR · #13 12-17-2015, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earwitness

Not sure I entirely agree. Foot-tapping translates internal rhythm into a simple up/down ankle motion.

Right. Foot tapping is an expression of your internal sense of time.
But how do you know your internal rhythm is reliable? If it was reliable then you'd have little trouble playing in time anyway.

I see your point about the simplicity of the foot movement, but then swinging a strumming arm is hardly more complex than tapping a foot. Playing in time begins with just being able to keep a beat while strumming, and some people can't do that.

I agree - as I said - that if your internal rhythm IS reliable, than foot tapping can help you get into the groove, help you play around the beat, help you swing, syncopate, etc.

But this is about what to do when your internal rhythm needs training. In general we can't tell how good or bad our rhythm is unless we play along with something that is rhythmically solid: good band, pro recording, backing track, drum machine, metronome etc. So we might think the foot tapping is helping when it isn't.

I've seen enough jazz students tapping their feet out of time while playing. It was definitely a translation of their internal rhythm - exposing how bad it was!

Silly Moustache · #14 12-17-2015, 05:25 AM

Firstly foot-tapping - good in theory for those that know a little about time.

I see many amateurs who foot-tap in time with the melody rather than the actual time - a little like Keith Moon played drums - this is not good.

Also I know at least one bass player who speeds up during lead breaks - I have to watch one and if he starts grinning I have to catch his eye and give himm a "signal" not to get carried away.

Bass players should be tapping one foot on the off beat as they play on the on beat.

Rhythm and lead players/singers - are better to tap on the off beat ....I think.

Don't stamp too hard or your foot/ankle will get tired and distract you.

My way of starting is to consider how I'm going to sing the piece so, I'll quietly pick my guitar whilst "thinking the first couple of lines, then, 1,2,3,4, or 1,2,3, or 1, and ...to lead in the others at a speed and accent that enables me to sing the lyrics without speeding them.

Some are naturals at this - I am not so - many of us have to "think" the tempo and accent, and work to maintain it.