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Old 12-15-2011, 05:47 AM
hobbesy123 hobbesy123 is offline
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Default Crazy struggling beginner question?

I don't know if this will even make sense Self taught and struggling a bit... I've gotten to where I can play barre chords cleanly, but I just can't get to them fast enough. Getting better just through boring repetition though. I can feel progress but it's achingly slow and hard won. Say I'm going from Am to Bb playing something fingerstyle. It's sooo hard to get the bass note, which is the first note I have to play, on the Bb fast enough to not hear a crazy hitch every time. Do most people try to get the barre finger down first and then worry about the others? I just can't do it if that's the case. Once the barre finger is down I have almost no control over the other fingers. If I look at it slowly I kind of go pinkie, middle and ring together, and then barre with the index last. Getting closer to coming down as a whole, but definitely the barre is always last and it's usually the first note I need. I can kind of cheat for now on something like the F chord and play the A string as the bass and maybe play down to the E next... It almost looks like magic watching videos of people playing all over the neck. I'm sure there are people who just have better muscle memory or some such... Ha I hope that's somewhat coherent?
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Old 12-15-2011, 06:06 AM
HHP HHP is offline
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Don't use barre much but I always found it easier to put the fingers down in the sequence they will be played. Usually, I 'll get the lowest bass note, lay down the finger to make the barre, add the other fingers. It happens fast but is a sequence.
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Old 12-15-2011, 06:42 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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Watch anyone who plays fast effortless chord changes and I would bet you see all fingers go down at the same time. Enough people from all sort of talent levels can do this for us to be sure that it is not an essentially difficult task. However in order to do it you have to practice doing it. If you are putting some fingers down before other fingers you are not practicing putting all your fingers down at once.

Unless you can position all your fingers for a chord on, but not pressing down, the strings you wont be able to do fast changes.

Try getting all fingers for a Bar F shape touching the strings in the right places without pressing any of them down. Take as long as you need. Then press down.

Then do the same with a bar B flat chord.

Repeat this over and over, maybe a fret higher each time. It can take forever at first but will get better in time.

Good luck.
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:59 AM
BrianMcG BrianMcG is offline
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I had the same problem. With my lessons I felt I had mastered chord changes from open to barres pretty well until I started to lear Canon in D fingerstyle. Playing fingerstyle really exposes some weaknesses in you technique.

A tip I saw on youtube from Marty was to practice barres two different ways. Make the barre first then put the remaining fingers down, and also put the fingers down then make the barre. By doing that you eventualy start to meld the two together.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:03 AM
oldhippiegal oldhippiegal is offline
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it takes a long time, or it has for me. Some things I've come to realize for me as occasionally barre problems still crop up for me at the oddest times:

my danged thumb causes problems. I tend to hang it over the top of the guitar on open chord songs, and moving from open to barre then requires me to make a major wrist shift to get there. So I've had to retrain myself to keep the thumb behind the neck on songs that require the shift.

Sometimes putting down the barre first works. Sometimes putting down the fingers first works. It depends on the change (E min to B min is different than G to F # minor)

Sometimes I change fingerings of the open chords to make the change easier, or I'll barre with my pinkie.

I have to use the metronome on a difficult series of changes, going half speed and slowly moving the dial up. Even still, I have to, if the changes are brand new to me, and that's after six years of daily playing of an average of 90 minutes per day.

Also, one doesn't really have muscle memory until one develops it for a particular task. There's nothing natural or intuitive about fretting the guitar. Keep at it!
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesy123 View Post
...I'm sure there are people who just have better muscle memory or some such... Ha I hope that's somewhat coherent?
Hi hobbesy...
With time the fingers are relaxed and move as a unit.

Here's an exercise I give my students...
Set a barre in place on the 3rd fret, and without playing anything with the strumming/picking hand, move the barre up 5-7 frets and drop it in place. Then bring it back down to the 3rd fret...

Stay focused on being relaxed and only lifting the barre-ing hand off the strings just far enough that you don't drag the strings on the way up (squeak).

Repeat a couple dozen times each day...

Barre chords are not a strength move, and work best when the guitar's action is set properly. There is a tendency to 'grip' too heavily when our technique is in the fledgling stage, and it slows us down considerably. Dexterity is built on being relaxed and familiar with where the fingers are going to land.

The purpose of the exercise described above is to build that muscle memory in a relaxed fashion without the interference of having to play at the same time. Once you have done it a couple dozen times, you can begin to strum/pluck with it. Then return to the non-playing position and alternate between playing and not till you are perfectly relaxed when barring.

To answer your first question, good players often drop fingers in place just before hitting notes, and their technique appears very fluid as a result.


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Old 12-15-2011, 10:51 AM
JonPR JonPR is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesy123 View Post
I don't know if this will even make sense Self taught and struggling a bit... I've gotten to where I can play barre chords cleanly, but I just can't get to them fast enough. Getting better just through boring repetition though. I can feel progress but it's achingly slow and hard won. Say I'm going from Am to Bb playing something fingerstyle. It's sooo hard to get the bass note, which is the first note I have to play, on the Bb fast enough to not hear a crazy hitch every time. Do most people try to get the barre finger down first and then worry about the others? I just can't do it if that's the case. Once the barre finger is down I have almost no control over the other fingers. If I look at it slowly I kind of go pinkie, middle and ring together, and then barre with the index last. Getting closer to coming down as a whole, but definitely the barre is always last and it's usually the first note I need. I can kind of cheat for now on something like the F chord and play the A string as the bass and maybe play down to the E next... It almost looks like magic watching videos of people playing all over the neck. I'm sure there are people who just have better muscle memory or some such... Ha I hope that's somewhat coherent?
That Bb barre is probably the hardest simple chord you'll ever have to play! (except maybe Fm7...)
It wouldn't occur very often in a fingerstyle piece, not as a barre anyway. (I don't know ANY fingerstyle tunes that require a Bb barre.) Not that that's much use if you've got a tune that needs one!

As the others say - and you've kind of guessed - it's just down to practice. Yes it's tedious and time-consuming, but that's why everyone is not a great guitarist: you need the passion and commitment to see it through. Those people you see who make it look easy have just practised for years (and probably started when they were kids).

One tip: make sure your guitar is properly set up, especially the action at the nut. It's common for guitars (even expensive ones) to be issued with nuts that are too high. This makes playing at low frets (esp barres) much harder than it needs to be.
If you have a capo, put it on fret 1. If that makes your guitar much easier to play, your nut is too high and you should get it fixed.

Another tip: if you're paying fingerstyle, you may not need the whole chord. How many strings on the Bb chord are you actually picking? Those are the only ones you need to hold down. (You should be able to barre a full Bb, of course, but you don't always need to.)
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Old 12-15-2011, 11:05 AM
unimogbert unimogbert is offline
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Old 12-15-2011, 11:37 AM
daza152 daza152 is offline
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Originally Posted by unimogbert View Post
There are other ways to solve the problem too.

Consider Am barred at the 5th fret. Then look at Bb barr at the 6th.
Same chords, small, easy moves if you can do barres.
(Might not fit the rest of the music though)
good idea, that would work...personally I don't see the drama with the Bb at first fret but I used it it in a song progression and sounds alright..Its Layla by the way. I pretty much can't play any barre chords without looking, and when I am looking nail it pretty much 99% unless they are unfamiliar I have only been playin g for a few years and suggest you only learn the chords for the songs you want to play.....and if there is a tricky chord amongst them, try other chord voicings?
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Old 12-15-2011, 02:27 PM
JonPR JonPR is online now
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Originally Posted by daza152 View Post
good idea, that would work...personally I don't see the drama with the Bb at first fret
If your action is good and your strings are not too heavy, it's not a big problem in terms of strength - although (I know from my teaching) the shape itself can still give beginners a headache, getting the stretch between index and middle, getting the index holding all the strings it needs to, and squashing the other 3 fingers together enough.
(You've been playing a few years, which is enough time to conquer it.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by daza152 View Post
but I used it it in a song progression and sounds alright..Its Layla by the way.
Uh-huh - and you get one in Sultans of Swing too. Any song in the key of D minor is likely to feature a Bb sooner or later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daza152 View Post
I pretty much can't play any barre chords without looking, and when I am looking nail it pretty much 99% unless they are unfamiliar I have only been playin g for a few years and suggest you only learn the chords for the songs you want to play.....and if there is a tricky chord amongst them, try other chord voicings?
I agree. I don't see any advantage in learning a whole bunch of chords without songs to put them in. The song gives you the best reason to practice them, and a logical musical context for them.
And it's always possible to use other positions, shapes or fingerings - which help you learn the fretboard, and also a bit of chord theory, which can't do any harm.
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Old 12-15-2011, 06:27 PM
David M123 David M123 is offline
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Hi Hobbesy!

Welcome to the wonderful world of guitar! I'm going to throw you a curveball, but it was my solution to the exact same problem when I was at your stage about 40 years ago, and I've never found a reason to change it, although other people sometimes think I'm a little weird when they realize what I am doing.

For the A major barre form, I do it with only 2 fingers, a kind of double barre. In the case of the Bb major you are struggling with, my 1st finger barres at the 1st fret, then my 3rd finger does a partial barre of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings at the 3rd fret. The third finger needs to bend up a bit to avoid muffling the 1st string, but I have never had a problem with that.

This has a few advantages: I find it to be much faster, which is your issue right now; you only have to pay attention to 2 fingers instead of 4; it avoids the congestion issue of trying to place the 3 lower fingers into too small a space; it also avoids the question of which order (both in time and in space) to place those fingers.

Obviously, this only works for the major form. Dominant 7th's, Maj 7th's have to be done the more traditional way. With practice, you can get a Sus 4 easily.

I have used this technique ever since, even though I now can play the more usual 4 finger form, and do, when circumstances warrant it. For the record, I use it whether fingerpicking or strumming, acoustic or electric.

Try it out and use it if it works for you!

Good luck, and let us know how you do!

Dave

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Old 12-16-2011, 06:04 AM
hobbesy123 hobbesy123 is offline
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Thanks for the replies. I hadn't had a reason to go from barre chord to barre chord yet and I couldn't believe how clumsy I was. That I literally had to lift my index finger up entirely just to move down a few frets. I can tell a difference already in how much more naturally my index finger is starting to drop with the others after sitting for an hour just moving around randomly. Nowhere near enough yet, but I can feel the possibility now
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