Why doesn't my Martin with a LR Baggs M1a sound better?

[jspartz]

I have a Martin D-16GT acoustic that sounds nice acoustically. I put a LR Baggs M1 active pickup in the sound hole but recently came to the conclusion that it’s not giving me a reproduced sound quality that I really would like when amplified.

I had the Martin in for a tune up and borrowed an Epiphone AJ-220sce from a friend. The Epiphone guitar, which is much more affordable, sounded GREAT through a couple different P.A. situations and other musicians have commented on the difference between the guitars. Which has me realizing that the LR Baggs isn’t delivering what I want. I am assuming this is a situation of “you don’t know what you don’t know” so I’m curious to see suggestions on improving the Martin / LR Baggs combo.

What’s the problem? It’s not a deep, rich, or full sound. The low end isn’t tight, robust, or even close to the sound from the Martin acoustic unamplified. I tend to use a Rupert Neve RNDI straight from the pickup and into a sound system and then EQ the best I can. What should I be considering to help provide a better sound?

Please share your experiences and suggestions. Thank you.

[lschwart]

2 things:

1) You can't expect a pickup to give you the sound of the guitar. Especially a magnetic pickup. The sound can be a good one, a musical one, usable in live situations, but it will not be the acoustic sound of the guitar.

2) You may just not like the sound that the Baggs produces. What pickup is in the Epiphone that you liked? You may like the sound of that pickup better--or at least that pickup in that guitar.

All of that said, the Baggs M1a can be EQed in ways that might make it more appealing to you (most people give it a cut somewhere in the mids--for example, I cut the frequencies of my passive M1 pretty steeply at about 1.5 kHz, using the a semi parametric EQ on my Radial PZ-Pre preamp/DI). Also, the pole pieces can be adjusted, which not only changes the balance, string-to-string, but also changes the balance between the sound the magnets get from interacting with the strings and the sound of the pickup's interaction with the guitar top (the higher the pole piece, the more string sound you get as opposed to top sound). You can try these things on yours, but in the end, you might do better trying some other pickups or a mic of some kind.

Louis

[ManyMartinMan]

What ischwart said. The acoustic tone and amplified tone can/will be very different. Try swapping the Baggs out for a K&K Mini pickup and you'll likely find a completely different tone. Otherwise, there are too many variables to suggest any one or two changes. Are you pre-amping the Baggs? Are you running through an EQ? What type of amp/PA are you using? Have you run the guitar through a mixer to EQ the tone? It's a lot like plugging an electric guitar into an amp. You will never sound like Jimmy or John Mayer or Santana without a lot of gear and hours of tweaking the raw output from the guitar. It's not the guitar because you already know you like the tone from it.

[Cuki79]

Visit Doug Young's pickup test page.

You'll hear all kind of pickups vs external microphone

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by lschwart

2) You may just not like the sound that the Baggs produces. What pickup is in the Epiphone that you liked? You may like the sound of that pickup better--or at least that pickup in that guitar.

The Epiphone AJ-220SCE has the NanoFlex low-impedance bridge pickup with Shadow Performer Tuner preamp.

These Shadow systems are darn good. I have the NanoFlex plus NanoMag combination with the eSonic2 preamp in my Epiphone DR-500MCE. Using just the onboard eSonic2 preamp the system can be mixed to get a nice full tone.

[SalFromChatham]

The pole pieces are adjustable... trial and error is your friend... but hopefully Eric weighs in. He uses an M1A on his D18 I think.

I had one and I did get a pretty decent sound out of it. But I did use an EQ-7 pedal, and I did adjust the pole pieces.

[RockerDuck]

I have an M1a in my Yairi, which is a Martin knockoff. I use a Boss GE-7 to adjust it to sound good.

[varmonter]

I guess its all been said above. The m1a is what it is
a mag pup. Your guitar will have that magnetic
electric twinge to it. Live this can be good as it helps
cut through the mix a bit. But if your recording
your much better off through a mic. And youll
get that "acoustic sound " your looking for.
There are much better sounding mag pups out there.
Baggs m80 and sunrise are two of my favorites.
But with the m1a judicious eq application and pole peice adjusting
are the only options you have. I find removing the b and high e
poles compleatly and cranking the g and d ones down
raising the a and low e a bit usually gives me something
thats workable. The rest is eq.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

The Epiphone AJ-220SCE has the NanoFlex low-impedance bridge pickup with Shadow Performer Tuner preamp.

These Shadow systems are darn good. I have the NanoFlex plus NanoMag combination with the eSonic2 preamp in my Epiphone DR-500MCE. Using just the onboard eSonic2 preamp the system can be mixed to get a nice full tone.

You got me curious and I checked out the Shadow website. It looks like the NanoFlex is similar to the Fishman Sonotone in construction and appears to be a polymer piezo (which can sound great in a noisy live situation and is my first choice for that usage).

[SalFromChatham]

Here is Eric....

[MrErikJ]

I have the M1A in my Guild and while it's not as good as a dual source setup, it's a great one pickup solution. I agree with what was said before that you'll have to experiment with EQ and the pole pieces to get the sound that works best for you. It isn't going to sound identical to the guitar but that doesn't mean it isn't a good sound that won't work in a live setting.

Give it a try and play with it a bit. If not, it just may not be the pickup for you. There's plenty out there to try.

[shufflebeat]

If you think about it, any mag pickup is reacting to a small part of the system, most of what makes the acoustic sound is having little or no effect on the pickup signal.

The m1a is better than some mag pickups in that it does have sensors which reproduce some of the percussive element of the sound which is often missed by mags.

The balance between the mag sound and the body sensors can be adjusted to some extent by raising or lowering the height of the polepieces in relation to the strings (maintaining the height in relation to each other). It's not magic but the effect is noticeable.

It's also worth considering what strings you're using. Mag manufacturers like to say their P/Us can be used with acoustic strings. In my experience this is not true. The best option I have found is nickel bronze strings which, acoustically, have a mellow, old world feel to them and electrically are much more balanced than (i.e.) phosphor bronze which sing out loud like Wes Montgomery on the 1E and 2B but then are anaemic and indistinct for the wound strings, only the steel core is causing the P/U to react.

Personally, I dislike the sound of mags but the m1a is better than many of them. If you can get to like the sound of it for what it is (I can't) then it will be reliable and consistent for years.

Boss GE-7 is a great companion to the m1a.

Hope that helps.

[BluesKing777]

It depends on the guitar the M1A is used on! Possibly to do with how far everything is from the strings - the soundhole distance seems to be random and different on every guitar I own! (from too close to the strings for the pickup to too far away and all in between - this must make a difference). I wanted the pickup to slip under the strings of various guitars when in the mood, no drama, no adjusting. But I have removed both 1st and 2nd string pole pieces, lowered the rest, run it to my Fishman Pro EQ for EQ and other control and get a good sound...."for a mag pickup".

This pickup is so easy once adjusted - preamp on board, just plug 'er in.

I am liking my new Seymour Duncan Mag Mic a lot - the mic adds its special 'reality' thing I like playing with, but they can cause lots of trouble with added volume.....


BluesKing777.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

You got me curious and I checked out the Shadow website. It looks like the NanoFlex is similar to the Fishman Sonotone in construction and appears to be a polymer piezo (which can sound great in a noisy live situation and is my first choice for that usage).

Cool! Thanks, Jon. I'm going to record the Epiphone DR-500MCE with its eSonic2 in my pickup/mic comparison series. Just playing at home, this system sounds good when I get the NanoMag balanced just right with the NanoFlex. The onboard EQ on the eSonic2 preamp is very useful. Even when the EQ is flat for the NanoMag, the string-to-string balance of the NanoMag is excellent and it sounds almost acoustic until I start playing up the fingerboard a bit and then the magnetic honk starts creeping in as it does in any magnetic pickup. This can be useful in playing dynamics as if I just play with a normal attack both pickups mixed sound good. If I get a bit aggressive, the onset of the magnetic sound makes for a nice emphasis, if wanted, in a passage. The NanoMag can be purchased separately and added to another system. Maybe, the Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2 would be a good candidate with its second-channel preamp and volume control?

[jspartz]

Thanks for all the comments!

I hear what you are saying and agree with the common knowledge. When I eq, I always scoop the mids and bump up the low end for a more pleasing sound through a PA. I almost never record through the pickup, I prefer the sound I get from the Martin with my Royer 121 mic.

The video samples were helpful. I loved the Chris Stapleton performance! The acoustic sound was nice too but it had more effects on it than I typically use. The Tin Man recording sounds more like my current configuration, which works but it’s not quite the sound I am after.

It sounds like the takeaway is not to further explore alternative gear as a needed enhancement but to spend time adjusting the pole pieces to see what develops.

The AJ-220SCE is cheap enough that I might look for a used one as an alternative. I did play the master built DR-500MCE and it didn’t speak to me unplugged, plus the feel of the neck wasn’t as comfortable, so I passed on it. I might find the time to go back and plug it in and see what happens to the sound when using its pickup options. The K&K mini pickup might be worth experiencing too.

Thanks again for all the tips and suggestion! Greatly appreciated. Keep them coming if you have more thoughts that I should consider.