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Old 04-04-2019, 04:47 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Dave’s UltraTonic Adventure

Folks, as you know I am prejudiced against taped piezo installations. I’ve had them fall out when the weather changes. Since my attempt to glue the HFN pickup failed to produce a result that worked with all PA systems, I decided to finally install the UltraTonic system that I had ordered and had been reluctant to install.

Last year I ordered the version one of the system and the exciter tool and made a mess of things. I just couldn’t tune it reliably with the equipment I had. James May has since revised the design and included a two piece board and instructions for tuning the system by ear. This worked.

I installed all the transducers as you would any K&K system, with the exception of the feedback rejection disc. I used double sided tape to adhere the preamp to the pickguard for ease of access. Then, I strung up the guitar.



Tuning by ear was simple following his process. I decided to back down a little with this setup because I don’t need that much rejection.

I will try and upload a video of the feedback rejection in action. It’s brilliant.

As for sound...

It sounds like a K&K with an extra disc on the high e string to boost the highs a little. And the mud is mostly cleaned out. It’s a good sound. I’ll try and make some recordings. This is a better sounding K&K. It’s not as complex sounding as the Schatten HFN. It’s more fundamental. But, the highs are better than a stock K&K, and it’s permanently installed.

I also found that HFN did not play nicely with ToneDexter. And, I’ve invested a lot in that already.

Best
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Last edited by martingitdave; 04-04-2019 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 04-04-2019, 05:31 PM
The Kid! The Kid! is offline
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
I also found that HFN did not play nicely with ToneDexter. And, I’ve invested a lot in that already.

Best
It didn't? My HFN works great with the Tonedexter.
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Old 04-04-2019, 05:34 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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It didn't? My HFN works great with the Tonedexter.

Certainly the glue install was a disaster with ToneDexter. That’s what tipped me off. Then, when I plugged into another speaker and with headphones I could hear the KHz harshness that the glue imparted. It was seriously bad. Taped seems to sound better for sure.
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Old 04-04-2019, 06:12 PM
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James May James May is offline
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Certainly the glue install was a disaster with ToneDexter. That’s what tipped me off. Then, when I plugged into another speaker and with headphones I could hear the KHz harshness that the glue imparted. It was seriously bad. Taped seems to sound better for sure.
At the risk of derailing this thread off of the Ultra Tonic, I don't understand why the HFN would not work with ToneDexter. Having a very bright pickup with lots of highs would not be a problem for the training algorithm. I don't think gluing would explain it. From my perspective, there must have been something else going on.
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Old 04-04-2019, 06:49 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Dave’s UltraTonic Adventure

Quote:
Originally Posted by James May View Post
At the risk of derailing this thread off of the Ultra Tonic, I don't understand why the HFN would not work with ToneDexter. Having a very bright pickup with lots of highs would not be a problem for the training algorithm. I don't think gluing would explain it. From my perspective, there must have been something else going on.

I’m scratching my head too.

Getting back to your pickup... My email exchange with you got me off the dime to install your pickup. Just so folks know, I ordered and paid for the pickup.

You’ve done a very nice job with the suppression circuit. I giggled a little when I was testing the feedback switch.

I think it’s also great that you’ve been accessible and participating in the forums adding to the body of knowledge that comes from our collective experiences.

I’ve left the HFN glued into my 12 string for now. I will try training that guitar with the Dexter and see how that performs. Maybe I just experienced a fluke? Do we know if Les wires multiple piezos out of phase? A problem for another day.
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:38 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
I think it’s also great that you’ve been accessible and participating in the forums adding to the body of knowledge that comes from our collective experiences.

I’ve left the HFN glued into my 12 string for now. I will try training that guitar with the Dexter and see how that performs. Maybe I just experienced a fluke? Do we know if Les wires multiple piezos out of phase? A problem for another day.
Having people like James available on the forums is great. I've seen him chime in to answer questions for products that weren't his which is also rare to see.

The HFN is just a single piezo element that samples from 3 different places so you don't have to worry about multiple piezos out of phase.
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Old 04-05-2019, 01:37 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James May View Post
At the risk of derailing this thread off of the Ultra Tonic, I don't understand why the HFN would not work with ToneDexter. Having a very bright pickup with lots of highs would not be a problem for the training algorithm. I don't think gluing would explain it. From my perspective, there must have been something else going on.
Hi everyone,

I heard Dave's glued HFN with and without Tonedexter.

Fail is a big word. Tonedexter did his job... But it did not compensate enough honestly. It's the first time I've heard that but I thought the Tonedexter in this very specific case did not bring more than it took (in standard mode).

I am very picky with signal processing. A process should bring more to the table than it removes. I am a big advocate for IR convolution... So I am not saying Tonedexter is bad.

In "studio mode", the tonedexter would do the job much better but the overall sound was really wet as usual with long IRs.
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Old 04-05-2019, 01:50 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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I can't speak for Tonedexter

but when I make 2048 pts IRs with my process... You'd still hear some properties of the pickup.

If I take one guitar with let's say a UST and a K&K and make an IR for each with the same external mic position and the same recording session: I am prettry sure I won't get the same exact tone once each IR will be applied to each pickup.

You keep some of the character of the pickup. That's why I think K&K or UT are better candidate for IR. If your pickup is coupled to an external resonant chamber (rectangular, triangular, bridge shape) this another colouring that IR will have to correct.

For example, IR can't make a slow pickup respond "fast". It can rebuild a fast transient... but the sound will be at least slightly delayed. Of course your ear might not catch it. So while listening, you'd think the "attack" is restored... But your hand will feel that the response is not "instantaneous"
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Old 04-05-2019, 07:25 AM
Vancebo Vancebo is offline
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I have tried the Tonedexter with my Dazzo equipped guitars. I thought the results were excellent. There was no reason to believe that the resulting TD sound in anyway had a problem. I haven’t tried any other pickup so I have nothing to compare to.
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  #10  
Old 04-05-2019, 08:22 AM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
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Tonedexter seems to work best with less natural sounding pickups in my experience. I've used it so far with the passive HFN, Baggs Element, Baggs Anthem, Fishman Matrix, and a Barbera Soloist.

The Barbera Soloist, which is listed under "pickups that can work with caveats", actually produced my favorite wavemap so far. I find it doesn't really add much to the HFN. My favorite use for the HFN so far is plugged straight into my Fishman amp. The amp seems to round out the tone and makes it sound just like the guitar, only louder.
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Old 04-05-2019, 08:33 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Dave’s UltraTonic Adventure

I just trained ToneDexter with the UltraTonic pickup and it sounds excellent.

I also think the passive sound is good into the PA.

It lacks the “air” of a mic or the HFN, but it’s a good solid stable signal with strong gain, even string to string, and far less mud.

I’d love to get the “air” back into the sound passively, but I’m not sure that I’m capable of experimenting further with this.

To recap:

I started with K&K which was “OK to good” passively into a PA. Then, I got HFN fever and glued one in. Into my PA with the highs rolled off it was “delicious.” Much AGF posting ensued.

Then, I recorded it direct and it was like ice picks in my ears. ToneDexter also wasn’t happy.

I reinstalled it with tape. It was better but you still need to roll off the highs.

I don’t like tape, so I tired the UltraTonic sitting on my bench for a while. No air but no ice picks or mud either. Sound “pretty good” passively. ToneDexter is a very happy red haired boy.

HFN Lesson:

You can glue in your HFN if you always have a means of rolling off the highs with an internal or external preamp. You can’t plug in straight to a flat PA or you will kill people’s ears with ice picks. You can tape in your HFN and roll the dice without a preamp, but you might get the same result. Bottom line, you need a preamp to roll off the highs to an acceptable level.

Tonic Lesson:

You can have a better K&K sound with the feedback resistance of a UST. You won’t get the “air”’of a mic or HFN. But you can plug your passive pickup into nearly anything on the planet and get a good result without worry.

Dave is tired of experimenting with pickups for a while.
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Old 04-05-2019, 08:59 AM
gfirob gfirob is offline
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Thanks, Dave, very thorough post. And I'm guessing that, given the two Martins at the top of your signature, the true acoustic sound of the guitars is important to you.
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Old 04-05-2019, 07:19 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Dave’s UltraTonic Adventure

Rob,

I love these guitars for sure. And I do my best to get a good amplified tone with the fingers and with a pick when I play out. I’ve probably gone through more pickup nonsense than my uses could ever justify, but that’s the way I’m wired (no pun intended.)

There are some good choices of systems out there. The most important factor appears to be commitment. You have to pick a solution and tailor the rest of your signal chain around it. The best sounds seem to come from players who are committed to using something and get the best out of it. Endless tweaking begets endless tweaking.

Passive pickups with an outboard preamp or ToneDexter is a good way to go. Plug and play onboard active systems are equally effective. It comes down to the sound you want and how much stuff you can stand to have in your guitar.
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Old 04-06-2019, 07:00 AM
varmonter varmonter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Rob,

I love these guitars for sure. And I do my best to get a good amplified tone with the fingers and with a pick when I play out. I’ve probably gone through more pickup nonsense than my uses could ever justify, but that’s the way I’m wired (no pun intended.)

There are some good choices of systems out there. The most important factor appears to be commitment. You have to pick a solution and tailor the rest of your signal chain around it. The best sounds seem to come from players who are committed to using something and get the best out of it. Endless tweaking begets endless tweaking.

Passive pickups with an outboard preamp or ToneDexter is a good way to go. Plug and play onboard active systems are equally effective. It comes down to the sound you want and how much stuff you can stand to have in your guitar.
I am certainly in the endless tweaking. I too am wired
this way. I aquate it to "gold fever" in that its a bit of the holy grail search. but
yes if you commit to a project i think you can usually get it to work for you.
Certainly some are better than others and you usually get what you pay for.
But then there is that new item that just came out that seems to solve all the issues..hmm could it be the very thing Ive been looking for?? hmm.
I like this ... "Endless tweaking begets Endless tweakin". So true
in our case. But it is part of the fun.
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Old 04-06-2019, 07:29 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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I am certainly in the endless tweaking. I too am wired
this way. I aquate it to "gold fever" in that its a bit of the holy grail search. but
yes if you commit to a project i think you can usually get it to work for you.
Certainly some are better than others and you usually get what you pay for.
But then there is that new item that just came out that seems to solve all the issues..hmm could it be the very thing Ive been looking for?? hmm.
I like this ... "Endless tweaking begets Endless tweakin". So true
in our case. But it is part of the fun.

Indeed! We seem to like it that way, don’t we? :-)
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