Winner of YESTERDAY'S V-class playoffs...

[Tnfiddler]

All this V-brace talk has got me wanting one last X-braced Taylor, so I'm talking with Paul Tobias about ordering me a 526ce with an Arm bevel. I've got to get one before they switch the GS bodies over to V-bracing.

[beninma]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

I'm not a Martin fan, so I don't want my Taylor guitars to sound like a Martin. Every X-brace model I've owned has a lot more bottom-end than the V-braced models that I've played which makes them sound more balanced and louder. The V-braced models I've played sounded thin to me.

I don't know what your auditioning experience is with these guitars.

I might agree with you, I've played at least 10 V-class guitars on at least 5-10 occasions, including a road show and a factory visit.

BUT... I only played them in big open rooms, not the same environments I'm used to playing in.

BUT... I only played them with .7mm Celluloid picks or my fingers.. not necessarily the same picks I am used to

BUT... I didn't play any of them long enough to adjust to see if I adjusted my technique to accent the bass notes more.

I am very very struck by just how thin or thick/bassy a guitar sounds just based on my own technique.

I don't necessarily actually think the V-class guitars I've played have been thin I guess just they are so balanced they might sound that way to me.

I'm not in a case where I "need" a guitar.. but I wouldn't stress about buying a V-class guitar if I needed to replace my guitar.. my guess is if I wanted more bass I'd adapt pretty quickly.. different pick, different attack on the strings.

[Shades of Blue]

I want to also add that I thought that the new Grand Pacific sounded spectacular in the Taylor videos, but every real world demo I've heard since sounds nothing like the original Taylor produced demos. I want to try one, but I just don't hear a big guitar when I hear these.

[Larry Mal]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

First of all, they would not have had to change their "whole assembly line" to accommodate the change to v-bracing. The assembly line could have remained essentially unchanged. The only change would be the production of a decreased number of braces of a smaller number of types to supply to the assembly line.

It's not ludicrous if one appreciates the importance of operating and production costs to a manufacturing business.

I wouldn't argue that reducing production costs was the prime motivator for creating v-bracing and switching over to it across their entire line, but there is no way it was not a factor. If you can come up with a new bracing system that results in guitars with a sound you perceive as an improvement, gives your marketing machine a way to differentiate your product from those of your competitors, AND yields lower production costs, that's a win-win-win.

Is this something you know, though? I mean, do you know what it costs to make an X braced guitar vs a V braced guitar? Has Taylor shown you this information, or are you just speculating?

And of course we would have to figure in the costs of development, research, change to the assembly line and training, right? There's no way that all of that doesn't come into account.

But, you know, if you have figures you can back this up with, then by all means share them with us.

[Tnfiddler]

I guess the only question that I have (I know my opinion is worthless to Taylor and their bottom line) is this. Why the COMPLETE change from something that works and works quite well, I may add? Why not keep it as an option?? I guess that is the question lots of long-time Taylor owners have. I'm not a fan of the V-bracing, but I will probably acquire 1 or 2 more Taylor guitars in my life. I'd love to have it as an option.

[Tony Burns]

Only time will tell if the v bracing is as durable as the X bracing -
I feel Taylor just wants to be different rather than following the herd
that use the x bracing that Martin developed - and time will tell if the v bracing has any problems
and has merits.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

I guess the only question that I have (I know my opinion is worthless to Taylor and their bottom line) is this. Why the COMPLETE change from something that works and works quite well, I may add?

The answer is quite simple Fiddler... *NEW* guitar SALES and marketing talking points.

Most guitar buyers don't go to the extremes of research and discussion as those of us here do. Most rely on salesmans' advice. But even so, if a buyer is faced with a decision; spend $3200 on a new Taylor or... $2000 on the same exact model, in mint condition on the used market? Without change the Taylor new market competes with itself on the used market. So what Taylor does is differentiates itself with different iterations of the same model. A buyer walks into a store and the sales guy wanting to sell a new guitar at retail gives them the spiel of the V-class being the newest/latest/greatest thing ever. The customer thinks "OMG, if I buy the older model, it's outdated, worth less and not as good" and plunks down coin for the new one. Brilliant strategy from Taylor from a business standpoint. And many buyers buying brand name will go along with whatever they, Martin or Gibson put out [however Gibson's star has gotten somewhat tarnished in the past few years with inconsistency in build and sound and quality control issues].

To cite one model that still bears the same name but isn't even the same guitar is the Taylor 614ce. In 2008 they made them with 3 piece back, fingered headstock joints, AAA flamed maple and one of the first ES systems. In 2011 they had abandoned the 3 piece back for a 2 piece back, ditched the AAA flaming for one that wouldn't even get a AA rating. Changed the neck joint to a scarf joint and went to a different iteration of their ES system. In 2015 they "re-imagined" it again, with torrified top, stained maple (to look more like rosewood and camouflage the flaming) and started using the ES2 system. In 2018, they changed the 614 to a v-class model. In 10 years that 614ce, other than maple back and sides isn't even the same guitar. Personally, I think the 2008 model (which my buddy owns), other than the pickup system, is superior in every regard to later 614's. It is a pattern that seems to be Taylor's M.O.

I wouldn't say I'd never buy a V-class Taylor, but it would have to be very special and in all liklihood an outlier from that model in general. And again, when comparing that MIM Martin vs the Taylors... if money were any issue at all, that would have been a no brainer that day. I'd be bringing the Martin home.

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

The answer is quite simple Fiddler... *NEW* guitar SALES and marketing talking points.

I agree with this 100% and I am sure their goal was to produce great sounding instruments as well.

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

The answer is quite simple Fiddler... *NEW* guitar SALES and marketing talking points.

Most guitar buyers don't go to the extremes of research and discussion as those of us here do. Most rely on salesmans' advice. But even so, if a buyer is faced with a decision; spend $3200 on a new Taylor or... $2000 on the same exact model, in mint condition on the used market? Without change the Taylor new market competes with itself on the used market. So what Taylor does is differentiates itself with different iterations of the same model. A buyer walks into a store and the sales guy wanting to sell a new guitar at retail gives them the spiel of the V-class being the newest/latest/greatest thing ever. The customer thinks "OMG, if I buy the older model, it's outdated, worth less and not as good" and plunks down coin for the new one. Brilliant strategy from Taylor from a business standpoint. And many buyers buying brand name will go along with whatever they, Martin or Gibson put out [however Gibson's star has gotten somewhat tarnished in the past few years with inconsistency in build and sound and quality control issues].

To cite one model that still bears the same name but isn't even the same guitar is the Taylor 614ce. In 2008 they made them with 3 piece back, fingered headstock joints, AAA flamed maple and one of the first ES systems. In 2011 they had abandoned the 3 piece back for a 2 piece back, ditched the AAA flaming for one that wouldn't even get a AA rating. Changed the neck joint to a scarf joint and went to a different iteration of their ES system. In 2015 they "re-imagined" it again, with torrified top, stained maple (to look more like rosewood and camouflage the flaming) and started using the ES2 system. In 2018, they changed the 614 to a v-class model. In 10 years that 614ce, other than maple back and sides isn't even the same guitar. Personally, I think the 2008 model (which my buddy owns), other than the pickup system, is superior in every regard to later 614's. It is a pattern that seems to be Taylor's M.O.

I wouldn't say I'd never buy a V-class Taylor, but it would have to be very special and in all liklihood an outlier from that model in general. And again, when comparing that MIM Martin vs the Taylors... if money were any issue at all, that would have been a no brainer that day. I'd be bringing the Martin home.

Originally Posted by guitar george

I agree with this 100% and I am sure their goal was to produce great sounding instruments as well.

I believe someone posted earlier in this thread that Taylor couldn't keep up with demand and I think you hit it on the head here. I believe that the majority of the V-class buyers are 1st time Taylor owners who are believing the hype.

[Shades of Blue]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

The answer is quite simple Fiddler... *NEW* guitar SALES and marketing talking points.

Most guitar buyers don't go to the extremes of research and discussion as those of us here do. Most rely on salesmans' advice. But even so, if a buyer is faced with a decision; spend $3200 on a new Taylor or... $2000 on the same exact model, in mint condition on the used market? Without change the Taylor new market competes with itself on the used market. So what Taylor does is differentiates itself with different iterations of the same model. A buyer walks into a store and the sales guy wanting to sell a new guitar at retail gives them the spiel of the V-class being the newest/latest/greatest thing ever. The customer thinks "OMG, if I buy the older model, it's outdated, worth less and not as good" and plunks down coin for the new one. Brilliant strategy from Taylor from a business standpoint. And many buyers buying brand name will go along with whatever they, Martin or Gibson put out [however Gibson's star has gotten somewhat tarnished in the past few years with inconsistency in build and sound and quality control issues].

To cite one model that still bears the same name but isn't even the same guitar is the Taylor 614ce. In 2008 they made them with 3 piece back, fingered headstock joints, AAA flamed maple and one of the first ES systems. In 2011 they had abandoned the 3 piece back for a 2 piece back, ditched the AAA flaming for one that wouldn't even get a AA rating. Changed the neck joint to a scarf joint and went to a different iteration of their ES system. In 2015 they "re-imagined" it again, with torrified top, stained maple (to look more like rosewood and camouflage the flaming) and started using the ES2 system. In 2018, they changed the 614 to a v-class model. In 10 years that 614ce, other than maple back and sides isn't even the same guitar. Personally, I think the 2008 model (which my buddy owns), other than the pickup system, is superior in every regard to later 614's. It is a pattern that seems to be Taylor's M.O.

I wouldn't say I'd never buy a V-class Taylor, but it would have to be very special and in all liklihood an outlier from that model in general. And again, when comparing that MIM Martin vs the Taylors... if money were any issue at all, that would have been a no brainer that day. I'd be bringing the Martin home.

Bob Taylor is big on two things, sustainability and production processes. I still believe that the driving factors of this change are is V Bracing uses less wood, and is cheaper to produce. Otherwise, why introduce this bracing to the entire line? If they aren't going to produce X braced guitars anymore, it is simple to convert the production processes over to a faster, cheaper method. I mean, you can create market buzz with a few new lines, but Taylor has all their eggs in the V Class basket right now.

If someone could prove or show me that V bracing uses the same or more amount of wood, please do! I just think it's about cost cutting and using less materials.

[BT55]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

I wouldn't say I'd never buy a V-class Taylor, but it would have to be very special and in all liklihood an outlier from that model in general. And again, when comparing that MIM Martin vs the Taylors... if money were any issue at all, that would have been a no brainer that day. I'd be bringing the Martin home.

I own both X and V braced Taylor’s from 1995 to current vintage and I think they are ALL great guitars. V bracing is definitely an improvement to X bracing and only can be appreciated when playing in a quiet area and comparing it side by side to its X braced siblings. The V braced balance, clarity and sustain are all upgrades to their tonality. V bracing does not make X bracing obsolete - there’s plenty of room for both in a vast marketplace. How many AGF topics talk about posters after some time with a new guitar finds its voice after a week or so of being unhappy with the guitar. Why should V class guitars be any different? You have every right to your preferences but until YOU have given V class braced guitars an unbiased and fair demo comments on their “deficiencies” should be kept to yourself.

[beninma]

Buying a guitar you like and playing it for a long time instead of constantly flipping and acquiring ever more guitars is good for sustainability too.

And if you have to listen to guys like Bob Taylor they'll go on the record saying your guitar will sound better if you keep it for a long time and play it a lot rather than constantly flipping guitars.

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by BT55

I own both X and V braced Taylor’s from 1995 to current vintage and I think they are ALL great guitars. V bracing is definitely an improvement to X bracing and only can be appreciated when playing in a quiet area and comparing it side by side to its X braced siblings. The V braced balance, clarity and sustain are all upgrades to their tonality. V bracing does not make X bracing obsolete - there’s plenty of room for both in a vast marketplace. How many AGF topics talk about posters after some time with a new guitar finds its voice after a week or so of being unhappy with the guitar. Why should V class guitars be any different? You have every right to your preferences but until YOU have given V class braced guitars an unbiased and fair demo comments on their “deficiencies” should be kept to yourself.

To be fair Vin was basing those "deficiencies" on guitars he may have played or had experience with so he has every right to share that opinion. Those "deficiencies" have been discussed thoroughly by many others and opinions vary as should be expected. That's how we do it.

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by beninma

Buying a guitar you like and playing it for a long time instead of constantly flipping and acquiring ever more guitars is good for sustainability too.

And if you have to listen to guys like Bob Taylor they'll go on the record saying your guitar will sound better if you keep it for a long time and play it a lot rather than constantly flipping guitars.

What fun would that be??LOL The same old guitar day in and day out! Eewwww!!

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

A buyer walks into a store and the sales guy wanting to sell a new guitar at retail gives them the spiel of the V-class being the newest/latest/greatest thing ever. The customer thinks "OMG, if I buy the older model, it's outdated, worth less and not as good" and plunks down coin for the new one. Brilliant strategy from Taylor from a business standpoint.

New car salesmen use this trick all the time. They like to tell you that the new cars, with all the newest/latest/greatest things, are better than your nicely broken in ten-year-old car. Seems to work for them.