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#1
02-02-2016, 09:39 AM
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How do you count this Irish song?
Hi there,
I must humbly ask a fairly dumb question this morning. I've been arranging this piece called "An Seanduine" and have all the notes and phrases figured out. However, I'm not sure I'm counting the beats correctly. The intro sounds like a straight 4 bars of 4/4. When the singer kicks in, the accent starts moving around. By the start of the second phrase (0m55s), the melody seems to start on the second beat. My question is, does the melody actually start on the second beat or were there irregular bars added along the way? Thanks in advance for your help. https://youtu.be/VSjyv0wvna0 
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#2
02-02-2016, 09:58 AM
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When listening to it I keep counting out 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6....
with accents on the 1 and 4. Sounds to me like 6/8 time or perhaps 3/4 spread out over 2 measures. A lot like a typical Gigue. But, I could be completely wrong too...  (sorry for the non-helpful answer).
__________________
Best regards, Andre Golf is pretty simple. It's just not that easy. - Paul Azinger "It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so." – Mark Twain http://www.youtube.com/user/Gitfiddlemann
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#4
02-02-2016, 10:46 AM
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Each beat is a triplet. Technically speaking it is called compound time.
In the first section, let's call it the verse, the vocal line lasts for four triplet beats and there is a fifth triplet beat of no singing. There are three lines like this. The fourth, and last, line has four sung beats but instead of the unsung fifth beat she immediately starts singing what might be called the chorus. The first line of the chorus is four beats. The second and third line are five beats. The forth line is four beats and then there is a four beat instrumental line. Like this; Verse 5 beats 5 beats 5 beats 4 beats Chorus 4 beats 5 beats 5 beats 4 beats Instrumental 4 beats I've not counted past this. You can check if this format is consistant. If you want to notate this I suggest a time signature of 3/8.
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#5
02-02-2016, 11:46 AM
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It sounds to me like alternating bars of 6/8 (jig) and 9/8 (slip jig)- both common metres in Irish folk music.
The 4-beat lines are then two 6/8 bars. I'd probably notate it like that, rather than 3/8 all the way, which might look too fussy and obscure the form. Stanron is quite right about the counting, and it's just a question of whether you want to arrange the 5-beat lines as 2 and 3 (6/8 and 9/8), or 3 and 2. Would you count it "1-2,1-2-3" or "1-2-3, 1-2"? Feels more like the former to me.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
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#6
02-02-2016, 11:47 AM
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Gents, thank you for the insightful answers -- and the chuckles.
Guinness is probably one of my least favourite beers in the whole world. I drink Newcastle...
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#7
02-02-2016, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
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#8
02-02-2016, 01:35 PM
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The bars (other than in the verse) do tend to fall into 3/8 pairs, which is the usual indication of 6/8 (the bodhran implies 6/8 pattern); but of course the 5-beat verse lines break that up. The harmonic rhythm generally goes 2-1-2, so I guess rather than 6/8 and 9/8 (or vice versa) it could go 6/8-3/8-6/8, because the next line would start on 6 again. I'd feel it myself according to the harmonic rhythm - 2-1-2 - rather than five undifferentiated 3/8 bars (or long bars of 15/8!). It would be interesting to know how the musicians would prefer to read it - if they have a preference! I looked for notation for the tune, but none of the tunes I found with this title (or similar titles) have the melody she is singing; so I'm guessing she took the old lyrics and attached them to a different melody.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
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#9
02-02-2016, 02:02 PM
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I don't recognise or know the tune either. I've just listened to it again and the idea occurred to me that the tune might work perfectly well without the fifth beat at all. Maybe it's just there to enable the singer to take a breath. In which case the tune would be in a consistent 6/8.
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#10
02-02-2016, 02:14 PM
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This song is also known as "An Seanduine Doite".
Here's a version by Seamus Begley that goes along the same lines: https://youtu.be/ndedrFGa9Jc As for playing the song, I had no trouble phrasing the parts where she sings but the breaks/transitions really confused me. I've got everything figured out now. Thanks again for your help.
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#11
02-03-2016, 04:15 AM
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Of course, it probably was originally a vocal song, but that phrasing of the lines - dictated by the number of syllables and verbal stresses - has been preserved as part of the tune itself. You hear similar things in blues, where the structure of the lyrics can produce odd line lengths - not necessarily to draw breath between lines, but where the sense of the downbeat is shifted by a particular accent in the vocal. But in blues, that's rarely carried through to the instrumental sections, where a regular 4-beat pulse tends to be conserved.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
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#12
02-03-2016, 08:28 AM
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