Dumb Mandolin tailpiece question

[ethanay]

I have a Breedlove Quartz KF that I picked up for a super deal many years ago that I absolutely love.


It has a tailpiece like this: https://www.stewmac.com/globalassets...-rn-2-2700.jpg


So here's the dumb question: What are those extra four sideways hooks at the back of the tailpiece for? when I originally received the mandolin they were used to hold the highest four courses (so the strings went around the first hook and the loop was secured on the sideways hook). But when I tried to replace strings, they would break pretty easily, which makes sense since it puts an extra unnecessary kink in the string. So what the heck are they really for?

[Silly Moustache]

Hi, I think you have the idea perfectly, but styring changing on mandos are a pain at the best of times.

I have an allen cast tail piece that I think has been on three mandolins and it works fine and later versions are even better.

Check out : https://www.allenguitar.com/tpcs.htm

[neilca]

The four posts are for your A and E strings. You put the loop on the sideways hooks then around the corresponding straight hook. I have no idea why they do this, but that is how my mandolins were/are strung.

[Mandobart]

Most of my mando instruments have Allen cast tailpieces. My Morris hybrid F4 has the standard tailpiece in the OP's photo (with the slide-on cover). AFAIK these were first used by Gibson in the early 1900's.

Like others stated I use the sideways hooks for the E strings. I've never had them break at the tailpiece hooks. I think these old style tailpiece are only used for tradition's sake. My 1930's Stahl Banjolin and Regal resonator mandolin don't have that style of tailpiece and they were made for the same strings as the standard Gibson tailpiece.

I say it's your choice to use the sideways hooks or not.

[ethanay]

haha, yes, we can use those four hooks for the A and E courses...but....Wwwwhhhhyyyyyyy??


I think that's what's been breaking my new strings is the kink that it puts in them. Are those A and E strings higher tension or something, that would require reinforcement of two hooks?

[Shuksan]

I found this about the extra hooks:

"The stamped two piece mandolin tailpiece was first patented in 1910. This was a Gibson design and commonly referred to as a “Gibson Style Tailpiece”. The additional hooks are described as being beneficial for the unwound strings which are under higher tension. These additional hooks and the way they wrap around the second set of hooks, helps prevent the string from slipping. It was also still common for strings to come straight with no loop and the player had to create the loop themselves. We should not that moderns string manufacturing has improved, and new strings tend to stay in place. The hooks are no longer needed."

I interpret "prevent the string from slipping" to mean to keep the loop from slipping on itself under tension and possibly coming apart. Running the string around the tight corner of the first hook would take some of the load off the loop when it's attached to the second hook.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by ethanay

haha, yes, we can use those four hooks for the A and E courses...but....Wwwwhhhhyyyyyyy??


I think that's what's been breaking my new strings is the kink that it puts in them. Are those A and E strings higher tension or something, that would require reinforcement of two hooks?

As Shuskan says, it's because the unwound (plain) strings a century ago were prone to having the loop unwind. Not really an issue anymore.

[Br1ck]

While I have Allens and love them, I'd try a James next time around,

[Rudy4]

I have purchased and used Weber cast tailpieces in the past.

Highly recommended, but I'm not sure they still sell them as an aftermarket part.

[ethanay]

Thank you folks! So those extra four strings can be ignored unless I'm having issues just running the strings straight for some reason. I appreciate the history lesson.


In general, I always appreciate knowing what the original intent of the design was, it sounds like it was to wrangle unruly unwound courses for horses.


I otherwise have no other known issues with the tailpiece and don't see a particular need to replace it...it seems to do its job well enough. Although I do think it's somewhat hilariously ironic that Breedlove would put such a vintage-style tailpiece on such an otherwise blatantly-modern mandolin design.



ethan

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by ethanay

... I do think it's somewhat hilariously ironic that Breedlove would put such a vintage-style tailpiece on such an otherwise blatantly-modern mandolin design.

I wasn't familiar with the model, so I googled around and it appears that Breedlove did switch to a more modern tailpiece design at some point. (Aesthetically, though, it's not an improvement IMHO) They might have a bin full of spares if you wanted to contact them and ask. But, those stamped, "traditional" ones have the sole advantage of being pretty lightweight (matters to some folks, and may impact tone), and probably among the cheaper options (the nickels add up from a manufacturing POV). I'm in the "if it ain't broke" circle when it comes to stuff like that, myself...

[ethanay]

Thanks Keith, I'm of the same mind, I have no inkling to replace the tailpiece unless there's an issue with it. Appreciate your assessment, esp about the weight. And it seems very solid in my experience. Apart from having broken I think 3 brand new E strings now when tuning up, which I'll need to examine more closely.


This was supposed to be a high performance budget line of mandolins, the "quartz" line. No bling whatsoever (I really do hate bling on my instruments), just a great US-made instrument. It has flame on the back and sides but it's subtle enough to pass my gag reflex test.



I suspect that's a major reason why they simplified the lines on the body, too, as something like their K body shape seems orders of magnitude less complex than an F-style body shape to manufacture. So from that perspective, I think the tailpiece works. Simple, light, proven design, inexpensive to manufacture.

[Br1ck]

Those tailpieces continue to be used by Gibson. Tradition I guess. They have worked for over a hundred years.

[ethanay]

As someone else said..."if it ain't broke..."


I'm just happy to know about those mysterious 4 extra hooks, esp. with the string breakage issue when tuning up.

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by ethanay

...
I'm just happy to know about those mysterious 4 extra hooks, esp. with the string breakage issue when tuning up.

Because those tailpieces are stamped, those little "hooks" can have sharp edges, which is one thing I don't like about them. (Though I think most of us, regardless of our mando's tailpiece, close our eyes and turn our heads when tuning up those E strings for the first time - experience...)

You can try hitting them with some fine emery paper or similar to try and smooth off any questionable edges; just don't *sharpen* them in the process. But, first, look at where the breaks are happening, and it should be somewhat obvious if it's breaking at the end of the loop, or on a winding that got weakened going around the corner.