Tabs dependence .

[Travelpicker]

Hallo everyone ,I'm 66 years old and after some years of electric I play mainly at home acoustic guitar since five or six years , genre country blues , travis , some not advanced ragtime .My level is not stellar but appreciable ( ' intermediate ' ? - I don't know , but honestly often it sounds good...) . I mean , I surely can't play an original Blind Blake , but I enjoy myself to reproduce the songs of a lot of instructional books ( too many... I know , it's wrong , it should be surely better focus on less material , but this things keeps me alive , you know what I mean ) . So , Kenny Sultan , Stefan Grossman , Happy Traum , David Hamburger , Mark Hanson , Woody Mann ,the less advanced Tommy Emmanuel and EVERYTHING I can find on the internet and and on the bookshops . Really wrong..., I guess .
Anyway ,my problem is the dependence on the TABS.
I don' t remember as I'd like the music that just a minute before I've played with the tabs in front of my eyes .
I really thank you for your eventual suggestions and tips

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Travelpicker

Anyway ,my problem is the dependence on the TABS.
I don' t remember as I'd like the music that just a minute before I've played with the tabs in front of my eyes .
I really thank you for your eventual suggestions and tips

I read a really cool little book called the Laws of Brainjo a while back. The guy's a neuroscientist who plays banjo and has a teaching website. He has lots of theories based on his neuroscientist background about how we learn, and he has lots to say on your question. I found it quite interesting that he claims that playing memorized music and reading tab involve different parts of the brain. Therefore, according to him, you cannot memorize something just by reading the tab over and over, and in fact reading the tab over and over just burns the song deeper into the wrong part of the brain. You have to transfer the knowledge to a different part of the brain. This seems to be true for me. He has some tips for doing that transfer, so you might check out the book (cheap e-book), or maybe he has this info online somewhere as well.

For me what has worked is to memorize a measure or 2 at a time. Read it if you have to, but then play those measures immediately without looking, and then try to not look anymore. You need to be able to play those measures like 10 times perfectly without looking at the tab. Then go on. With the Brainjo guy's thoughts in mind, I've also found that I can know when the tune has "transfered" by practicing mentally away from the guitar, and observing how I'm thinking about/seeing the music. If when I mentally play thru the tune, I'm picturing sheet music, I have't transformed it. If I'm picturing my fingers as they play, then I've moved it over to the "non-tab" part of my brain. Could all be nonsense, but it seems to work for me, and who am I to argue with a neuroscientist?

[jwing]

The more I learn about music "theory", the easier it is for me to learn and memorize songs and tunes. Scales, chords, triads, intervals - so useful.

The more I train my focus by playing guitar exercises every day, the easier it is for me to learn and memorize songs and tunes.

The more I practice short phrases and bring them up to speed in strict adherence to a metronome, the easier it is for me to learn and memorize songs and tunes.

The more I practice pieces slowly, the faster I can wean myself from the TAB.

[reeve21]

I have your condition. After 6 years of finger-picking I can play only a few simple tunes from memory. But I've probably "learned" close to a hundred that I can play from tab.

I learn from tab with my instructor, and we usually spend 2-3 weeks on a piece--long enough to be able to play it (not always at a decent tempo) but not long enough to memorize--and then on to the next one.

I'm aware of the "two measures at a time" method but have not developed the discipline to apply it. Part of me thinks even if I did memorize things, how much room does my brain have to hold onto it? But I'm going to take Doug's advice and give it an honest try on a tune I just learned to play from tab. If I get it memorized I'm going to record it and compare to my sight reading recording, which sounds kind of stilted to me. I have a hunch things might flow better if I wasn't reading while playing.

A couple of other random thoughts--I don't have this issue with lyrics or chord progressions of tunes I know really well--I can come back to those after months or even years and spit them out on demand. It's all the different "choices" of an instrumental finger-style piece that I can't memorize.

Also, I'm not sure this is really a problem for me. I don't perform "out," and when folks get together to jam they don't want to play this kind of stuff anyway.

Thanks for bringing up this interesting topic.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jwing

The more I learn about music "theory", the easier it is for me to learn and memorize songs and tunes. Scales, chords, triads, intervals - so useful.

I think that's true. If what you're trying to memorize is 1000 dots (or numbers) on a page, that's hard. if you can see it at a higher level - what's the chord progression? What's the melody? What's the bass line? And so on, that may help simplify what you have to learn.

I noticed this a long time ago with Tommy Emmanuel - leaving aside how virtuoso he is, he's quite often playing out of chord shapes - and often those chord shapes aren't obvious from the tab. And he knows the melody, and has a good enough ear that he can pick out the melody instantly on the guitar. So I suspect that from a memorization standpoint, someone who tries to learn one of his tabs by rote is working a lot harder than Tommy, because the tab doesn't really reflect what he's thinking. We're reading "note 1, note 2, .....note 1000). He's probably thinking C, Am, F, G7 chord progression (or whatever) with a melody over it.

So breaking down the tune, really understanding it, and not just as a collection of finger placements, may make it easier to memorize.

[Brent Hutto]

If I play piano every day for a few weeks (which I have not in several years) I can get pretty good at simply playing what's written on the sheet music. As long as it's beginner/intermediate stuff.

But I totally buy the Brainjo theory that no matter how many songs I can play from notation or even sight-read, I'm no closer to being able to sit down and play a piece by ear than I was before I ever took my first piano lesson. It's a part of my brain that never got developed and now in my 60's it's really slow work putting down new neural wiring.

Any instrument I can play single-note lines (i.e. just melodies) on, I can play by ear and I can memorize tunes after just sight-reading the notation a couple times. Including guitar. As long as it's a tune and I just need to remember note-note-note-rest-note-note-rest lines I'm good. But as soon as it has chords or even double-stops for harmony I'm back to helpless without my sheet music in front of me (although with enough patience I can eventually memorize a piece with multiple voices, it's just ultra-slow).

[rick-slo]

I don't think there is a right way or wrong way regarding using tab. You may more quickly become technically
adapt using tab or music scores but you may more quickly develop a discerning ear figuring things out without
visual aides.

A combination of both probably makes the most sense. For example I would not even consider going strictly by
ear when trying to learn various complicated classical guitar pieces (listening by ear still likely important to learn
to play musically and with feeling) and on the other hand if listening to new stuff that I can figure out quickly just
by listening why bother with tab or a score.

Either way with pieces you like and want to learn to play spend the time to memorize them and play them well.

[Mandobart]

Here it is again, the advice I always give. If all you ever do is play at home alone, youll reach a plateau (you're there now).

To progress, to learn more/better/faster than you have to this point in your short musical journey: You Need to Play With Other People.

Find or start a song circle. You go around the circle. On your tune you call a tune - "Dead Flowers" in D for example. Then you show the people what the progression is. Everyone follows as they can. Those who want to try can take a lead on a verse or chorus. It's not about competition or showing off - you're sharing music. There should be at least one designated "cowboy chord player" that others can watch, listen to and follow when they get lost.

Next person is up. How about a simple two chord song like "Jambalaya," "Horse With No Name," "Unknown Legend," "Tulsa Time"....?

If you faithfully do this once a week in 3 months your rhythm will be improved, your singing will improve, your confidence will improve. You'll have a better idea what to do when you forget/flub a line or chord. And you'll learn some songs without tabs!

[TBman]

I'm 67, had a mini stroke 5 years ago.

I play fingerstyle instrumentals only.

I don't know how much of my lack of memorization skills were affected by the stroke, but I can't memorize entire tunes like I used to. I did memorize a big chunk of a tune some time ago which made me pretty happy. As usual I got sick of playing it so I never followed through to memorize the entire tune.

Lately I have been working on classical stuff and playing one of them for about a month now practically every day and I'm memorizing parts of it as a result.

From my point of view there are a couple of things that factor into memorization -

1 Age/medical history.

2 The time (repetitions) it takes to memorize the piece.

3 The time (repetitions) it takes to be able to play the piece satisfactorily.


If 3 is less than 2, then your playing skills are partly to blame.

[Andyrondack]

As a child I had music lessons for about 8 years with 4 different teachers. I never memorised anything and not one teacher suggested I should.

[Lakedaisy]

Thank you Doug. I purchased the kindle version to read on my computer. I purchase a lot of your lessons years ago (I'm 74). Shenandoah was on of my favorite. I could mostly play it through without the tab (that too was years ago ). Think I'll work on the lesson again while reading The Laws of Brainjo.

[reeve21]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

As a child I had music lessons for about 8 years with 4 different teachers. I never memorised anything and not one teacher suggested I should.

Same here, until high school marching band (my most painful musical experience). All of a sudden we were supposed to play all those Sousa marches from memory, sounded pretty bad for a while!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Travelpicker

Hallo everyone ,I'm 66 years old and after some years of electric I play mainly at home acoustic guitar since five or six years , genre country blues , travis , some not advanced ragtime .My level is not stellar but appreciable ( ' intermediate ' ? - I don't know , but honestly often it sounds good...) . I mean , I surely can't play an original Blind Blake , but I enjoy myself to reproduce the songs of a lot of instructional books ( too many... I know , it's wrong , it should be surely better focus on less material , but this things keeps me alive , you know what I mean ) .

So what makes you thing anything is "wrong"?

Originally Posted by Travelpicker

So , Kenny Sultan , Stefan Grossman , Happy Traum , David Hamburger , Mark Hanson , Woody Mann ,the less advanced Tommy Emmanuel and EVERYTHING I can find on the internet and and on the bookshops . Really wrong..., I guess .

WHY? It all sounds great to me. Certainy if you're enjoying what you can play!

Originally Posted by Travelpicker

Anyway ,my problem is the dependence on the TABS.
I don' t remember as I'd like the music that just a minute before I've played with the tabs in front of my eyes .
I really thank you for your eventual suggestions and tips

So are you saying that all that stuff you can play (and enjoy playing), you can only do it when reading the tab? You can't just sit and play something from memory? Or maybe only small parts of it?

In that case, the answer is simply to pick one piece and play it over and over. Use the tabs as much and for as long as you need to, but occasionally try to close the book (or the website or ipad...) and see how far you get.

IOW, the problem is not the tabs. A lot of people have the exact same problem with notation: using it as a crutch. If you want to memorize a song and play it without the tab, you have to gradually wean yourself off it.

For any piece you've played several times (reading tab all the time), you should find you can play a fair amount of it without looking at the tab. Yes, you will make mistakes and forget what comes next, but the more you play, the more it goes into your fingers (automatically, without you realising). Your fingers can't read! But they learn their way around the fretboard, they learn the patterns involved.

I'll bet if I asked you to play a C chord, you wouldn't have to look up the shape! I bet you're seeing it in your mind right now. It's exactly the same with learning a tune. It's a much longer process, of course, but it's still the process playing over and over until it becomes subconscious. (Once upon a time, you would have had to check the diagram fror a C chord; but you reached a point where your fingers just went to it...)

The other problem is that you can get bored! Playing one tune enough to embed it in your fingers can make you so tired of it you never want to play it again! So you have to (a) really like the tune, and (b) really enjoy the process of repetition, the sounds you are making. IOW, resist the urge to go looking for other tunes, let alone other books... Pick or two iconic pieces, and dig deep.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by Travelpicker

Hallo everyone ,I'm 66 years old and after some years of electric I play mainly at home acoustic guitar since five or six years , genre country blues , travis , some not advanced ragtime .My level is not stellar but appreciable ( ' intermediate ' ? - I don't know , but honestly often it sounds good...) . I mean , I surely can't play an original Blind Blake , but I enjoy myself to reproduce the songs of a lot of instructional books ( too many... I know , it's wrong , it should be surely better focus on less material , but this things keeps me alive , you know what I mean ) . So , Kenny Sultan , Stefan Grossman , Happy Traum , David Hamburger , Mark Hanson , Woody Mann ,the less advanced Tommy Emmanuel and EVERYTHING I can find on the internet and and on the bookshops . Really wrong..., I guess .
Anyway ,my problem is the dependence on the TABS.
I don' t remember as I'd like the music that just a minute before I've played with the tabs in front of my eyes .
I really thank you for your eventual suggestions and tips

TP,
I'll repeat something I've espoused for many decades, because tab addiction is a real problem.

Until such time that you can walk down the street, mow the lawn, take a nap, etc WHILE you hum a piece of music in your head, it's not going to be available to your hands without the tab. So here's what you need to do.....

Video Record yourself playing WHILE looking at the tab, but don't show the tab in the video shot; only your guitar & hands.

Now put the tab away, and hit replay. See that? That's you playing, and no tab in sight.

Yes, it's a mind trick, but it's the first step in letting go of the map/directions, etc.

When was the last time you needed to look at GPS to go someplace you already knew how to drive to?

You need to make THE DESTINATION the CARROT, THE REASON why you desire to go someplace, physical or musical.

Of course the 800LB gorilla in the room is: Do you like the music you're trying to memorize? If you don't, nothing will help.

Best of luck with your journey!

Howard Emerson

[reeve21]

I'm not the OP, but am pretty excited about this thread.

I started trying to break my tab addiction last night.

Current tune I'm working on is Sounds of Silence, transcribed from the record and I think in the original key by my instructor.

By looking away from the tab I became more conscious of the underlying structure of the tune--it was like I was "seeing" the whole thing, not just one note at a time. And it feels completely different while I'm playing--smoother, like the fingers are getting to the right spots on their own, rather than reacting to seeing a dot on the page. And to be able to look at the fretboard when necessary to make big jumps is nice--I'm capod at the 4th fret and going up to 14 on the melody.

I already knew how to play the tune looking at the tab, so the memory is coming pretty quickly. I wonder if I should try to learn tunes by memorizing a measure or 2 at a time, or get the whole thing in "playable" shape and then go back to memorize?

I'm sure this is old news to most, but it feels like a breakthrough to me. Thanks to all who have contributed.