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  #16  
Old 08-25-2022, 10:33 AM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Just an update for anyone that was looking forward to hearing some sound samples from the Serrano 84s and the BU67, I have some I'll share but for the past 4 days or so I've been experiencing back pain that has been sending my internal VU meter deep into the red. My PT thinks the problem is in my SI joint but whatever it is, it's making even the simplest of things incredibly painful (for example, I had to do some problem solving to figure out how to put the dogs' food bowls on the floor this morning). He told me these things typically last 7-10 days so I have even more bliss and happiness in store for at least the next several days.

I did head over to my friend's studio Tuesday night and we managed to get some tracks done but it was a much shorter session than we'd originally planned due to my back issue. We got off to a slow start because he was having some kind of routing problem that took a bit of time to get sorted. Once that issue was squared, we put the Beesneez BU67 up against his "67" (which is a U87ai with it's guts replaced by the IO Audio 67 insert which my friend modded by replacing the cloned output transformer with an actual Neumann BV12). It was his "67" that I had borrowed earlier this year to gauge how badly I might want a 67-type mic.

I really loved how that mic sounded on me and I looked into what it would cost me to have the same mic for myself. I quickly figured out that route didn't make much sense. I'd need an 87ai or a TLM67 to house the IO Audio insert. The cheapest option would be a used TLM67 and that's going to cost about $2K. The IO insert would cost at least another $1K and I'd have to wait for one to pop up. Then there's the cost of a NOS tube and on top of that, I don't believe Neumann is selling BV12 transformers to the public anymore so I have no idea where I'd get that and I suspect the price would reflect that should I happen find someone selling one.

I changed gears and started looking at the not so many 67 clones on the market, listening to as many examples of each as I could find. None of them impressed me until I heard the Beesneez BU67and, as I've said previously, to my ears, that was as close to a real 67 as I've heard. So on Tuesday night we put the BU67 up against the IO Audio 67. The first thing that jumped out when listening back was that the BU67 had a lot more low end (that was user error, explanation coming). Other than that, it was hard to hear much difference between the two. We put a frequency analyzer plugin on both and, sure enough, the graphs were nearly identical. The only differences were the low end bump on the BU67 and a very slight bump at around 10k on the IO Audio.

We didn't realize it at the time, but the low end bump on the BU67 was because the mic shipped with the S2 mod switch engaged. That's a mod that was done on a lot of vintage 67s and it gave the mics a low end bump. So it was an unforced error of sorts but we both really liked that low end bump. I have a feeling that may be my preferred setting.

The guitar tracks (Gefell M295 vs Serrano 84) are a bit noisy, however, mostly because of the strap. We did those at the end and by then my back was on fire. The mic positioning wasn't great and we only did a single mic when I had to tap out.

Anyway, sitting at the computer is extremely uncomfortable right now so it's going to be some days before I edit the tracks and create a comparison track for you guys to hear. And once my back is sorted, I'll do some better tracks in my studio.
So very sorry to hear of your back pain Jim1960. Most people do not know just how devastating back pain can be. You have to experience it before you can truly understand it's horrifying effects upon your daily life.

Back in the mid 80's I was sitting still at an intersection and was rear ended by a van going nearly 40 miles an hour. I saw the accident coming in my rear view mirror. There was nowhere to go as I was blocked in on all sides. So I braced myself with all my strength. While there were no seen physical injuries to my body I immediately had very bad headaches. For over a month a half I kept going back to the doctors office and nothing was accomplished. I was not happy with the doctor as he could not solve my problem.

The doctor exited the room temporarily and a very cute nurse rushed in and whispered in my ear. "DON'T tell the doctor I told you this, but go see a chiropractor." And so I did and the pain went away. It is Not a permanent fix. It is only temporary. Still it is the only way that gets me through my back pain. And to this day nearly 40 years later, I still go 2 to 3 times a month. Anyway, I certainly sympathize with the pain you are experiencing. I hope you find relieve and answers soon.

This year for the first time in my life, I got gout twice. And talk about pain, I could not even take a step without yelling. I canceled my outdoor backpacking adventure a week an half ago because of it. And the week before I injured my middle finger...which I need to shoot traditional archery. And have not been able to shoot for three weeks now. Aw.....the pleasures of old age.

Just from hearing you glorious descriptions, and from others stating the qualities of Beesneez, I have all but convinced myself to purchase a BU67.

I have always loved the sound of a 67 on acoustic guitar. So full bodied and even. Not fast in transients...but hey that is what I have my Schoeps for. I do wish this to be a vocal mic as well. I..do have reservations on overloading the front in, as I can be a powerful with dynamics on my voice. However, I know the answer might be to just get back a bit further. And with all of the options this mic has to offer, the S2 mode for lower end, the 269 switch, and the infinite variable pattern....Well....as I mentioned earlier...at this point I find this mic completely irresistible.

I will still wait to hear your demos before making my final decision. I leave in the middle of next week to go visit m brother and nephew in Kentucky. In the meantime I wish you a speedy recovery & once again thank you for all the time and effort you put into your tests.
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  #17  
Old 08-25-2022, 10:58 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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I'm sorry to read about your back problems, Jim. That kind of problem makes everything so very hard. I hope you heal quickly. You take care!

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  #18  
Old 08-25-2022, 12:24 PM
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Yes back pain problems are very debilitating
I know full well having prototypical construction lower back issues
with three slightly distended disc's
So for me strengthening my abbs laying on my back and doing bicycle type pumps and mild Yoga stretches -- 3 to 4 days a week has helped a bunch.
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  #19  
Old 08-25-2022, 01:43 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Just an update for anyone that was looking forward to hearing some sound samples from the Serrano 84s and the BU67, I have some I'll share but for the past 4 days or so I've been experiencing back pain that has been sending my internal VU meter deep into the red. My PT thinks the problem is in my SI joint but whatever it is, it's making even the simplest of things incredibly painful (for example, I had to do some problem solving to figure out how to put the dogs' food bowls on the floor this morning). He told me these things typically last 7-10 days so I have even more bliss and happiness in store for at least the next several days.

I did head over to my friend's studio Tuesday night and we managed to get some tracks done but it was a much shorter session than we'd originally planned due to my back issue. We got off to a slow start because he was having some kind of routing problem that took a bit of time to get sorted. Once that issue was squared, we put the Beesneez BU67 up against his "67" (which is a U87ai with it's guts replaced by the IO Audio 67 insert which my friend modded by replacing the cloned output transformer with an actual Neumann BV12). It was his "67" that I had borrowed earlier this year to gauge how badly I might want a 67-type mic.

I really loved how that mic sounded on me and I looked into what it would cost me to have the same mic for myself. I quickly figured out that route didn't make much sense. I'd need an 87ai or a TLM67 to house the IO Audio insert. The cheapest option would be a used TLM67 and that's going to cost about $2K. The IO insert would cost at least another $1K and I'd have to wait for one to pop up. Then there's the cost of a NOS tube and on top of that, I don't believe Neumann is selling BV12 transformers to the public anymore so I have no idea where I'd get that and I suspect the price would reflect that should I happen find someone selling one.

I changed gears and started looking at the not so many 67 clones on the market, listening to as many examples of each as I could find. None of them impressed me until I heard the Beesneez BU67and, as I've said previously, to my ears, that was as close to a real 67 as I've heard. So on Tuesday night we put the BU67 up against the IO Audio 67. The first thing that jumped out when listening back was that the BU67 had a lot more low end (that was user error, explanation coming). Other than that, it was hard to hear much difference between the two. We put a frequency analyzer plugin on both and, sure enough, the graphs were nearly identical. The only differences were the low end bump on the BU67 and a very slight bump at around 10k on the IO Audio.

We didn't realize it at the time, but the low end bump on the BU67 was because the mic shipped with the S2 mod switch engaged. That's a mod that was done on a lot of vintage 67s and it gave the mics a low end bump. So it was an unforced error of sorts but we both really liked that low end bump. I have a feeling that may be my preferred setting.

The guitar tracks (Gefell M295 vs Serrano 84) are a bit noisy, however, mostly because of the strap. We did those at the end and by then my back was on fire. The mic positioning wasn't great and we only did a single mic when I had to tap out.

Anyway, sitting at the computer is extremely uncomfortable right now so it's going to be some days before I edit the tracks and create a comparison track for you guys to hear. And once my back is sorted, I'll do some better tracks in my studio.



Oh man, take it easy & get well. Health is more important than geeking out about audio & guitars.
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  #20  
Old 09-03-2022, 03:33 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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As I said previously, these examples aren't great. It's just one mic and the mics could have been positioned better but my back was on fire and I just needed to get through this once and wrap it up. I'll do a better comparison another time.

FYI - This was with the dark cardioid capsule (which Carlos Serrano is now calling the "vintage cardioid" capsule). When I get around to it, I'll do some samples with the other two capsules and a better track with the M295.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n3afvaslu...OkQcxoIha?dl=0

Edit: I should have mentioned that the guitar I'm playing in the clips is my Circle Strings Parlor which has a western red cedar top and shedua b/s.
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Last edited by jim1960; 09-04-2022 at 04:28 AM.
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  #21  
Old 09-03-2022, 09:20 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
As I said previously, these examples aren't great. It's just one mic and the mics could have been positioned better but my back was on fire and I just needed to get through this once and wrap it up. I'll do a better comparison another time.

FYI - This was with the dark cardioid capsule (which Carlos Serrano is now calling the "vintage cardioid" capsule). When I get around to it, I'll do some samples with the other two capsules and a better track with the M295.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n3afvaslu...OkQcxoIha?dl=0



My take...and I only listened on my little speakers...didn't pull them up on my big studio monitors yet:

The Serrano definitely had that transformer "weight" to it. I found it very real feeling with just enough top to be articulate, but not in any way bright.

The Gefell was a bit smaller feeling to me. I also perceived a little more noise/top end hash, which may be what I perceived as "smaller". Certainly not a bad sound, but the Serrano was my definite favorite by a good margin.

Thanks for the samples.
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  #22  
Old 09-04-2022, 08:34 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Listened again, this time on the 3-way Dynaudios...

The Serrano 84 is definitely warmer, but it's more than that. It's bigger, it has more heft to it. It has a weight that is really nice.

The Gefell just doesn't have as much "oomf". Its a very nice mic & in no way a slouch...it just isn't as commanding. Still very usable.

Man, I wish they made these with a pad...I'd buy a pair or 3 in a heartbeat. I may still grab a couple.
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1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition)
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  #23  
Old 09-05-2022, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
As I said previously, these examples aren't great. It's just one mic and the mics could have been positioned better but my back was on fire and I just needed to get through this once and wrap it up. I'll do a better comparison another time.

FYI - This was with the dark cardioid capsule (which Carlos Serrano is now calling the "vintage cardioid" capsule). When I get around to it, I'll do some samples with the other two capsules and a better track with the M295.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n3afvaslu...OkQcxoIha?dl=0

Edit: I should have mentioned that the guitar I'm playing in the clips is my Circle Strings Parlor which has a western red cedar top and shedua b/s.
I'd say I was more drawn to the Gefell; it seemed to have greater resolution at the higher end of things. But, maybe the vintage capsule of the Serrano is just not what I care for as much, and the other capsule may be a different story for me.

The bass on the Serrano does seem to have more 'fullness', but then I also wonder if the Gefell low end roll off (EQ'd for close micing) is part of the difference. More time with optimizing placement might give different results.

I'm curious, do you feel one of these mics captures the tone of this guitar more realistically?

In any case, both really nice mics, and enough differences to fine tune the capture to get what you are aiming for. Thanks for sharing the recordings.
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  #24  
Old 09-05-2022, 08:28 AM
runamuck runamuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
As I said previously, these examples aren't great. It's just one mic and the mics could have been positioned better but my back was on fire and I just needed to get through this once and wrap it up. I'll do a better comparison another time.

FYI - This was with the dark cardioid capsule (which Carlos Serrano is now calling the "vintage cardioid" capsule). When I get around to it, I'll do some samples with the other two capsules and a better track with the M295.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n3afvaslu...OkQcxoIha?dl=0

Edit: I should have mentioned that the guitar I'm playing in the clips is my Circle Strings Parlor which has a western red cedar top and shedua b/s.
I have a hard time making sense of mic comparisons. I hear differences but I also know from experience how moving an acoustic guitar just an inch or so closer to a mic can have quite an effect on the low end.
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Old 09-05-2022, 08:39 AM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Originally Posted by DupleMeter View Post
L

The Serrano 84 is definitely warmer, but it's more than that. It's bigger, it has more heft to it. It has a weight that is really nice.

The Gefell just doesn't have as much "oomf". Its a very nice mic & in no way a slouch...it just isn't as commanding. Still very usable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
I'd say I was more drawn to the Gefell; it seemed to have greater resolution at the higher end of things.

More time with optimizing placement might give different results.

I'm curious, do you feel one of these mics captures the tone of this guitar more realistically?
Jim1960, I actually think this was a great test! The guitar & the melody was super even and allowed me to really hear the character differences between the two mics.

I owned a pair of 295's for about three weeks, and currently own a pair of Schoeps(which have some of the traits of the KM84) Based on my past experiences= theoretically (theoretically cause I have not heard the Serrano in person), this is seemingly a valid recording representation.

I also preferred the sound of the Serrano's in this test. It has that solid late 60's and 70's acoustic guitar sound that I grew up with and loved. The sound of very full & defined notes.

However ChuckS does have some very valid points. The 295 has an unusual roll off. I wish I had more time to have played with them. It is very possible that the 295 has very critical placement needs. As where a KM84 is most likely less critical.

And I too are most curious as to which mic you feel represented your guitar the most accurately?

I am still visiting in Kentucky, listening through cheap monitor speakers, but from what I am hearing I am liking the Serrano's. However, I also do not hear the openness, that I might hear in a pair of Schoeps. And that is perfectly o.k. Each mic has its values. And I do like the...solid sound I am hearing from these Serrano's. Everything has its place and reason to use.

Based on what I am hearing...there would be very real reasons for me to own a pair. It is good to have little differences. Sometimes that little difference between mics can make the defining difference for a particular tune.
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Old 09-05-2022, 10:52 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Originally Posted by DupleMeter View Post
The Serrano 84 is definitely warmer, but it's more than that. It's bigger, it has more heft to it. It has a weight that is really nice.

The Gefell just doesn't have as much "oomf". Its a very nice mic & in no way a slouch...it just isn't as commanding. Still very usable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
I'd say I was more drawn to the Gefell; it seemed to have greater resolution at the higher end of things. But, maybe the vintage capsule of the Serrano is just not what I care for as much, and the other capsule may be a different story for me.

The bass on the Serrano does seem to have more 'fullness', but then I also wonder if the Gefell low end roll off (EQ'd for close micing) is part of the difference. More time with optimizing placement might give different results.

I'm curious, do you feel one of these mics captures the tone of this guitar more realistically?
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Originally Posted by runamuck View Post
I have a hard time making sense of mic comparisons. I hear differences but I also know from experience how moving an acoustic guitar just an inch or so closer to a mic can have quite an effect on the low end.
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
The 295 has an unusual roll off. I wish I had more time to have played with them. It is very possible that the 295 has very critical placement needs. As where a KM84 is most likely less critical.

And I too are most curious as to which mic you feel represented your guitar the most accurately?
Quite honestly, I don't think either mic is represented in its best light by either track. To say I rushed that recording is an understatement. We didn't even play around with the mic placement because of the pain I was in by that point in the evening. We simply pointed them at the spot where the neck meets the body and hit record. I wanted to get at least a take to let you folks hear the mics because I said I'd try to get that done.

FYI - the tune is for a song I wrote called "Tether the Moon" and I played it on my Circle Strings parlor guitar. Being a parlor, the sound is a bit more boxy than on a larger bodied guitar, so that might be something to keep in mind regarding those demo tracks.

When I get around to it, I'll record the same song and try to set up a pair of each mic more optimally so we have a more fair and useful comparison. I'll do something similar with the vocals. I'll record them through the BU67, my Flea 47, and my Blue Kiwi. I'll probably also do a take with the Blue Kiwi running through my Demeter pre because I think that pre does something magical to fet mics.
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2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

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Old 11-23-2022, 09:04 AM
gmel555 gmel555 is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
When I get around to it, I'll record the same song and try to set up a pair of each mic more optimally so we have a more fair and useful comparison.
Jim, have you done anything more with the Serrano 84s? Thanks.
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  #28  
Old 11-23-2022, 10:34 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Jim, have you done anything more with the Serrano 84s? Thanks.
Not yet. I've just been too busy with a thousand other things lately.
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2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
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2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
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  #29  
Old 11-21-2023, 11:24 AM
guitarua guitarua is online now
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Hey all,

Reviving this thread as I just did a shootout of all the Serrano 84 capsules, against a real KM84. Sorry for the playing, first time I touched the guitar today and wasn't focused on that.

Guitar: 2021 Caleb Smith D-28 (Adi/BRW)

Preamp: Inward Connections DMC-1 with Scott Liebers 2050 "Red Dot" op amps

Mic placement: 12" off of 14the fret, except for Omni, which was closer to 8"

Here is the player with the unnamed mics, curious what everyone thinks. Cheers!

https://next.samply.app/p/DGbz3CIqap6MQsss9J3o

Last edited by guitarua; 11-21-2023 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 11-21-2023, 03:18 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Unfortunately I can not seem to get this to go into the play function. I press play arrow and nothing happens. Looking forward to hearing this test!

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarua View Post
Hey all,

Reviving this thread as I just did a shootout of all the Serrano 84 capsules, against a real KM84. Sorry for the playing, first time I touched the guitar today and wasn't focused on that.

Guitar: 2021 Caleb Smith D-28 (Adi/BRW)

Preamp: Inward Connections DMC-1 with Scott Liebers 2050 "Red Dot" op amps

Mic placement: 12" off of 14the fret, except for Omni, which was closer to 8"

Here is the player with the unnamed mics, curious what everyone thinks. Cheers!

https://next.samply.app/p/DGbz3CIqap6MQsss9J3o
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