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  #31  
Old 05-26-2022, 10:39 PM
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Interesting, Anton. I'm not sure that noise is actually mic (or preamp) self-noise, its pretty noticeable at lower frequencies, not as broadband as I'd expect mic noise to be. I don't have many N22 tracks lying around, but checking the few I have, the noise profile is pretty different, more even across all frequencies and substantially lower than this. I also hear a lot more room sound than I usually hear in your recordings. I wonder if the culprit is the figure-8 pattern, picking up more of your room, and maybe computer or other noise?

I'll send you one of the few examples of an N22 recording I have for comparison.
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  #32  
Old 05-27-2022, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Interesting, Anton. I'm not sure that noise is actually mic (or preamp) self-noise, its pretty noticeable at lower frequencies, not as broadband as I'd expect mic noise to be. I don't have many N22 tracks lying around, but checking the few I have, the noise profile is pretty different, more even across all frequencies and substantially lower than this. I also hear a lot more room sound than I usually hear in your recordings. I wonder if the culprit is the figure-8 pattern, picking up more of your room, and maybe computer or other noise?
...
That's always what kept me away from ribbons at home.

I wonder if you couldn't just apply the "S" processing to each of those tracks and then listen to the "LR" (which would be two front-back sides in a Blumlein pair, right?) individually to determine how much of the room was being picked up?

The N22 is active, as well, so it will have self-noise, and should not need another preamp, other than the mic pre, at least from what I read. Interesting that the spec PDF at AEA does not include self-noise.
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  #33  
Old 05-27-2022, 07:16 AM
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The N22 is active, as well, so it will have self-noise, and should not need another preamp, other than the mic pre, at least from what I read. Interesting that the spec PDF at AEA does not include self-noise.
Yes (phantom power) active !!! but be aware much depends on the the phantom power and the DB gain of the specific pre .....As I noted I basically have to crank my Avid Carbon pre to almost full (which has a full 48 volt Phantom Power and 60 db of gain) also note I play about 12 to 14 inches away so that would no doubt be less if I mic'ed closer ................
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  #34  
Old 05-27-2022, 09:35 AM
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Yes (phantom power) active !!! but be aware much depends on the the phantom power and the DB gain of the specific pre .....As I noted I basically have to crank my Avid Carbon pre to almost full (which has a full 48 volt Phantom Power and 60 db of gain) also note I play about 12 to 14 inches away so that would no doubt be less if I mic'ed closer ................
@anton stated somewhere above that he's got an RME Babyface, so I'll assume it's up to the job, and if I convert the [N22] 8.3mV sensitivity spec (using some online calculator I found) it's about -41dB equivalent, so the RME gain should be more than enough, and not a noise factor. (You'd only be down a dB or so at 1ft. IOW, I'm still in the "it's the room noise" camp.)
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  #35  
Old 05-27-2022, 09:51 AM
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Thanks for that observation Doug, that is super good to know. I just figured it was preamp or mic noise. With my cardoid Gefells I hear not nearly as much room noise. I don't think the fan on my Macbook Pro was going, but the backside of the ribbons are facing my window, so it could be environmental or house noise. I'll do some more tests with two panels in a V behind the mics, perhaps that will help block some of it out.

I applied Izotope RX Noise Remover to the track and i think it sounds alot better. I need to work with the stereo balance a bit, i feel like its pulling toward the left some, or a majority of the guitar body sound is coming through that mic.

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  #36  
Old 05-27-2022, 12:10 PM
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I need to work with the stereo balance a bit, i feel like its pulling toward the left some, or a majority of the guitar body sound is coming through that mic.
This is a challenge with XY on solo guitar. Where are you placing the mics? The usual recommended spot, at the 14th fret isn't ideal for solo fingerstyle, since one mic is aimed at the fretboard, the other at the body (or even the soundhole...) What generally works for me is to place the mics above the soundhole, centered on the body of the guitar, so you are balanced on the body of the guitar, but avoid the soundhole. But those 2 N22s stacked are like a 1 1/2 foot long, so that doesn't work as well.

What should work is the MS equivalent, just rotate the mics 90 degrees, and make sure the side mic is basically in front of the soundhole, with the null pointing to the soundhole, the lobes aimed across the guitar in both directions. Then the Mid mic goes on top, up around the top of the waist. You can play with the vertical placement to find a spot that sounds good, but not boomy. Once decoded, MS is theoretically the same as XY, tho in practice, since you're close mic'd and the 2 large mics are picking up different parts of the guitar, it will be a bit different. You can also rotate the side mic slightly to affect the left-right balance, tho you want to be sure the soundhole stays in the null.

You can also use EQ to fine-tune a mostly balanced stereo guitar. I find FabFilter's EQ to be especially handy - adjusting the L and R channels with a Tilt EQ curve can even out small differences without messing with the stereo image too much. You can also use the MS EQing features, pulling down the side component on the lower frequencies a little on the bass area, which often tends to be what's bouncing around when the guitar's pulling to one side (assuming you're mostly balanced). Pulling down the Side (perhaps boosting the Mid EQ at the same frequency to offset the cut) makes the low frequencies more mono, moving the bass into the center of the image (which you may or may not want - it's something to play with)
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  #37  
Old 05-27-2022, 12:16 PM
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For this Bluemine config the point where the two mics intersect was pointed at the center of the soundhole, with the top edge of the bottom mic even with the top edge of my guitar, if that makes. So if the front of the mics are 90 degrees from each other, the center of that angle is pointed right at the sound hole, so each mic is spanning the side of soundhole
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  #38  
Old 05-27-2022, 12:21 PM
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For this Bluemine config the point where the two mics intersect was pointed at the center of the soundhole, with the top edge of the bottom mic even with the top edge of my guitar, if that makes. So if the front of the mics are 90 degrees from each other, the center of that angle is pointed right at the sound hole, so each mic is spanning the side of soundhole
That's the best spot for XY/Blumlein, tho you don't have quite as much null in the soundhole that way as you'd get with MS, and that does mean (If I'm following what you did) that one mic is centered on the guitar, while the other is above it, which probably creates some imbalance of both volume and tone. The beauty of MS is that you get the body equally on both sides.
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  #39  
Old 05-27-2022, 12:24 PM
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Yea, i see, the top mic is indeed above the guitar. I'll try to lower the whole configuration or sit myself up higher. Ill also try mid side.
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  #40  
Old 05-27-2022, 12:47 PM
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Yea, i see, the top mic is indeed above the guitar. I'll try to lower the whole configuration or sit myself up higher. Ill also try mid side.
Yeah, I'd try lowering it so the junction of the mics is at the soundhole - but with MS, leave them where they are, and just rotate the mics by 90 degrees.
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  #41  
Old 05-27-2022, 01:20 PM
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That's the best spot for XY/Blumlein, tho you don't have quite as much null in the soundhole that way as you'd get with MS, and that does mean (If I'm following what you did) that one mic is centered on the guitar, while the other is above it, which probably creates some imbalance of both volume and tone. The beauty of MS is that you get the body equally on both sides.
A small thing, but thank you for the correct spelling. Alan would be pleased.
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  #42  
Old 05-28-2022, 08:35 AM
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@anton stated somewhere above that he's got an RME Babyface, so I'll assume it's up to the job, and if I convert the [N22] 8.3mV sensitivity spec (using some online calculator I found) it's about -41dB equivalent, so the RME gain should be more than enough, and not a noise factor. (You'd only be down a dB or so at 1ft. IOW, I'm still in the "it's the room noise" camp.)
I am not a tech kinda guy, so all I know is the N22's requires almost all of the stated 60 db gain of my preamp and was noting that people (in general ) should be aware... But yes seems the OP's REM is 65 so should be good to go
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  #43  
Old 07-14-2022, 03:39 PM
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The "classic" ribbon sound is the sound of the long ribbons. The RCA is the classic example of this. The closest I've heard to that is the AEA. I have 2 R84s and an R88 at the studio. They are superb on acoustic instruments. They have that larger than life feel of the classic long ribbon mic, with that subdued, yet not dull, top that gives them a 3-D quality.

I would check out the R84 or R84A. The difference being that the 84A has a phantom powered preamp so you don't need as clean of a pre and it makes sure the load is right where it's supposed to be, so you don;t have to worry about having a preamp that has a setting for ribbon mic impedance.

That said, I've run the unpowered R84 & R88 through a plain old API 512 and have been quite happy.
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Interesting thoughts. The R88 remains my favorite ribbon, even tho its rather dark on acoustic. I also have a Royer SF24, and tho it sounds good, it doesn't have the same "magic" that the R88 seems to have.
For solo acoustic guitar recording, what about the R88A? With its electronics, it offers another 12dB of gain which I believe is aimed at being more effective with soft vocals and the inherent softness of an acoustic guitar.
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  #44  
Old 07-14-2022, 04:32 PM
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For solo acoustic guitar recording, what about the R88A? With its electronics, it offers another 12dB of gain which I believe is aimed at being more effective with soft vocals and the inherent softness of an acoustic guitar.
It just depends on the preamp you have. The active version ensures correct impedance, and adds that extra gain. I use quiet preamps that meant for ribbns and have all the gain i need. If your preamp cant supply enough quiet gain, then adding that internal gain stage should help. Note that as Anton discovered, even an active ribbon still needs lots of gain for quiet sources like fingerstyle guitar.
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  #45  
Old 08-14-2022, 08:20 AM
Baxendaleguitar Baxendaleguitar is offline
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Originally Posted by anton View Post
I'm looking at buying a nicer ribbon mic, or maybe a pair sometime this year. I thought I would get some opinions from you fine folks. Mics I currently have:

Gefell M300 pair
AKG 414 XLS
AT 2020 pair
SM 57
Cascade Fathead ribbon

My interface is a RME Babyface Pro. It seems to have plenty of gain for the Fathead, but I've mostly used it to record guitar amps. I might need a specific ribbon preamp to record solo fingerstyle guitar.

I'm thinking of using a ribbon to record electric guitar, banjo, steel string guitar, my National single cone, maybe some flute. Basically a variety of things.

I mostly record in my bedroom studio, which has some acoustic treatment. I've been looking at the various offerings from AEA. The N22 sounds nice, and seems to be built for folks recording at home, functioning best as a close mic. With their other mics like the R84 or the N8 I would need to be farther from the source, which would bring my less than ideal room into play, though its hard to know how much.

On the cheaper end of things these Cascade Vin Jets sure sound good, and seem to get good reviews. A pair of them with the upgraded Lundhal transformer runs about $1000.



If anyone has any input about AEA mics, or other suggestions, I am all ears.
The AKG 414 is not a ribbon. I really like my Royer R122 it’s fantastic on acoustic guitar.
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