Any Improvements in Dual Source Systems?

[michaelm101]

Baggs Anthem and Fishman Dual source (Prefix & Presys) have been around for quite awhile. Perhaps, a decade?

Has anything been engineered to improve upon these top-notch systems or is there still a load of inventory to turn over before new R & D can begin?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by michaelm101

Baggs Anthem and Fishman Dual source (Prefix & Presys) have been around for quite awhile. Perhaps, a decade?

Has anything been engineered to improve upon these top-notch systems or is there still a load of inventory to turn over before new R & D can begin?

I suspect the majority of dual source systems out there are custom - people assemble what they want from various pieces. Lots of people add a mic to some other pickup. Some combine a mag with an SBT, and so on. There are other commercial dual source systems besides those you mention. K&K sells their SBT+Mic, for example. The Maton and Cole Clark systems are well-regarded. Fishman has the PowerTap system, which is newer. Duncan has its Black Angel setup, somewhat newer. I'm sure I'm forgetting some others that are out there.

But I think in general, the commercial product world has focused more on simplicity and ease of use. People who are seriously into dual (or multi) source, usually want to be able to EQ each source separately, and blend them separately, which requires a 2-or-more channel preamp, and just gets more complex than your average guitarist wants to deal with.

A big area where R&D has and is continuing to happen is in IRs, making any pickup sound better, and arguably reducing or eliminating the need for dual source, at least from the standpoint of producing better tone (there are other reasons to use dual source systems).

[johnnyp]

Originally Posted by michaelm101

Baggs Anthem and Fishman Dual source (Prefix & Presys) have been around for quite awhile. Perhaps, a decade?

Has anything been engineered to improve upon these top-notch systems or is there still a load of inventory to turn over before new R & D can begin?

Found this under the radar option a few years ago and my search ended.

Schertler Magnetico AG6 soundhole pickup
With add-on condenser mic

I use the onboard blender pot to mix in just a little mic for air and wow it sounds lovely and natural.

[michaelm101]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

But I think in general, the commercial product world has focused more on simplicity and ease of use. People who are seriously into dual (or multi) source, usually want to be able to EQ each source separately, and blend them separately, which requires a 2-or-more channel preamp, and just gets more complex than your average guitarist wants to deal with.
.

I totally understand. I've been into sound since childhood and have had dreams of the perfect sound system typically involving mini-mics and under saddle transducers going into a pair of parametric controlled pre-amps (my old Pendulums), all running through my old analog Scholtz Rockman stereo chorus, and coming out in stereo into mixer then into a pair of great sounding powered mains, etc, etc...Oh, and I forgot the external mic!

However, and a BIG HOWEVER, it would only be practical in a fixed and controlled installation/environment.

Anything outside of this would turn the dream into a terrible nightmare!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by michaelm101

Baggs Anthem and Fishman Dual source (Prefix & Presys) have been around for quite awhile. Perhaps, a decade?

Has anything been engineered to improve upon these top-notch systems or is there still a load of inventory to turn over before new R & D can begin?

Hi michaelm
I started with a Baggs LB-6 in 1993, which I had customized into a dual source around 1995 with Bagg's upgrade internal 9v preamp on a circuit board with the mic mounted on the board. I ran it out through a Pendulum End Pin preamp for years and it sounded a lot better. Far better than other guitars with (mostly) under saddle rigs.

Then in 2015 I switched to K&K Pure Mini pickups for the transducer, and their Silver Bullet internal mic and a Raven PMB I for the preamp. It was better and sound was easy to manage no matter the venue. In those days you could supply unlimited power to the Silver Bullet. I had 3 brands of preamps which supplied 15v and 18v to those mics (in 4 guitars) for years without damaging them.

Then 3 yrs ago I dropped back a notch from dual source to ToneDexter using just the K&K Pure Mini (the mics are still internally mounted as a backup). It sounds more 'natural' than the K&K (which still sounds great). I was not dissatisfied with the K&K rigs. I was 71 yrs old and just wanted to see if the ToneDexter could make it even more natural in the room! (which it did)…I'm still happy with the K&K dual source through a Raven PMB II I keep around for backup.

I can use either the K&K rig or my ToneDexter without soundhole plugs, even in pretty aggressive situations. The ToneDexter is better at it than the K&K Dual source which I occasionally need a feedback-buster to keep feedback under control (depends on the house PA abilities, and sound tech knowledge & experience).

If I were starting from scratch today, I'd likely go for a K&K Pure Mini and ToneDexter, Baggs Voiceprint or similar rig.

K&K ruined the self-built preamp choices by limiting the mic to 9v power (more voltage and it shuts down).

[IraDuncan]

Originally Posted by michaelm101

Baggs Anthem and Fishman Dual source (Prefix & Presys) have been around for quite awhile. Perhaps, a decade?

Has anything been engineered to improve upon these top-notch systems or is there still a load of inventory to turn over before new R & D can begin?

The Prefix Onboard Stereo Blenders I have in 2 of my guitars are 20 and 21 years old.

I have K&K PW Mini transducers running into both.

I recently purchased my first Fishman Rare Earth mic-blend and installed it into a GS Mini mahogany and my only regret there is not doing it sooner

I run the Prefix Stereo blenders to a Mogami TRS cable into my Rane AP-13. Each signal gets individually EQ'd.

That preamp sends the blended signal out to an Ultrasound AG50DS2 which sits atop my rack. The pedalboard I use is plugged into the AG50DS2's effects loop.

[davidd]

I just did an economical dual source setup on my inexpensive Yamaha FSX700SC. I left the stock UST with factory preamp as is and added a passive HB sound hole pickup. I also added an extra hole for the sound hole pickup and use TRS to dual TS breakout adapters into a pedal sized Behringer Micromix 400 line mixer. From there it goes into my NUX Stage Floor preamp. I have volume, delay, chorus and reverb pedals in the chain and eventually out from a AB/Y box. One output cable to my Val King 210-18 watt amps return and the other to the main input. Works fantastic. IMO it beats the heck out of the Anthem I have in my J45. Sounds better with little or zero feedback issues. The magnetic sounds just glorious with just a hint of piezo mixed in for some clarity and presence. Now I have one setup that works equally well for both my electric and acoustic needs.

I've also tried it with my Alto TS312 powered speaker but it doesn't come close to sounding as good as it does through a good old tube power amp section. I guess I'm just a contrarian when it comes to acoustic amplification.

[jimmy bookout]

FWIW, I use the "old" LR Baggs iMix system (Element/iBeam) in all my guitars and I am quite happy with it. After spending a gazillion dollars over the years on pickups/preamps, the iMix works great, and until someone comes along with something A LOT better sounding, I'm set. I should add that we no longer go straight into a P.A. like we used to. My playing partner uses an AER Compact 60 and I use a Genzler Acoustic Array Mini.
If the venue needs a PA, we go out of the amps into a Bose Tonematch/L1

PS. I don't think Baggs makes the iMix anymore (not listed on their website), but they are still available in the market

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jimmy bookout

FWIW, I use the "old" LR Baggs iMix system (Element/iBeam) in all my guitars and I am quite happy with it. After spending a gazillion dollars over the years on pickups/preamps, the iMix works great, and until someone comes along with something A LOT better sounding, I'm set. I should add that we no longer go straight into a P.A. like we used to. My playing partner uses an AER Compact 60 and I use a Genzler Acoustic Array Mini.
If the venue needs a PA, we go out of the amps into a Bose Tonematch/L1

PS. I don't think Baggs makes the iMix anymore (not listed on their website), but they are still available in the market

I reviewed the iMix for AG when it came out - or maybe it was a guitar that came with the iMix, and I liked it a lot. Nice sounding pickup system, at least compared to what else was out at the time. Never quite understood why it didn't catch on and/or was discontinued.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I reviewed the iMix for AG when it came out - or maybe it was a guitar that came with the iMix, and I liked it a lot. Nice sounding pickup system, at least compared to what else was out at the time. Never quite understood why it didn't catch on and/or was discontinued.

It’s still in production, but I agree, I don’t get why it didn’t take off. I always bring this up when people are discussing the imix, but a Canadian musician (Jimmy Rankin) and his lead guitar player, both use the imix and they both always have incredible live tones. It kind of reminds me of the Takamine pathetic pickup but with more body tones. I just bought the Infinity Powertap, which is the same basic pickup idea. I am hoping it’s just as good as the Matrix doesn’t seem to rob the unplugged tone as much as the Element.

[jimmy bookout]

Doug and Petty,
I agree, I've never understood the iMix's lack of popularity. My longtime playing partner and I were playing a gig about a year ago and I guy came up to me during our break and asked what I was using. I told him and he said: "Your guitar is the best sounding steel string I've ever heard in a live setting".
I thanked him and we exchanged contact info. I sent him the lowdown on the iMix and where he could get it. He shot me a note 2 months later and had installed one in his OM28 and was absolutely smitten with it.

To Petty,
I have never noticed the Element detracting from acoustic tone, but I'm old! I should add that I have bone saddles in all my iMix equipped guitars, which Baggs recommends against (they recommend man-made materials like Tusq, etc)...somehow I've gotten away with it and had very few balance issues, easily cured with small, ebony shims...and PATIENCE.
I think the one upside of the iMix is that it has more (and more precise) adjustment for both pickups than it looks like the Power Tap Infinity does.
That said, now you've messed me up and I might try to find a used one and try it out!!!
People talk about "GAS" but chasing amplified acoustic guitar tone will run you into the poor house.

[guitaniac]

I recall liking the iMix quite a bit once I used a PADI to notch down the excess boominess. It’s my belief that the iBeam is very dynamically responsive, making the iMix more responsive to the touch than the Element by itself.

Alas, I left the iMix behind when I got caught up in the digital craze. It’s fortunate that the DTAR Wavelength was also quite dynamically responsive (in comparison to more typical USTs).

[jimmy bookout]

^^^
I got caught up in the IR craze also (have the empty bank account to prove it), and after many months of messing with it, I'm back to the good old iMix.
For me, the "digital" age was the shiny penny (DOLLARS) that I never could get to sound the way I wanted.
"Old" doesn't mean "Bad" as the zillions of electric players that still lug around 70 pound tube amps prove.

For me, the REAL improvement in amplified acoustic guitar tone is in the new wave of acoustic amps. I plug any of my guitars into my Mesa Rosette or Genzler Acoustic Array Mini and just smile.

[michaelm101]

Originally Posted by jimmy bookout

FWIW, I use the "old" LR Baggs iMix system (Element/iBeam) in all my guitars and I am quite happy with it. After spending a gazillion dollars over the years on pickups/preamps, the iMix works great, and until someone comes along with something A LOT better sounding, I'm set. I should add that we no longer go straight into a P.A. like we used to. My playing partner uses an AER Compact 60 and I use a Genzler Acoustic Array Mini.
If the venue needs a PA, we go out of the amps into a Bose Tonematch/L1

PS. I don't think Baggs makes the iMix anymore (not listed on their website), but they are still available in the market

I guess I was on hiatus when this stuff came out. 2002-2020?

The guitar I plan to "Anthemize" already has an Element installed. When I asked a Baggs tech if I could simply add a mic, and then blend, he directed me to the Anthem. I'm intrigued and interested in this imix thing...

1) Does this imix gizmo use a mini-mic? 2) Is this mini-mic the "ibeam" you speak of?

BTW, it took me a longer time than most to convert to DIGITAL anything...

[jimmy bookout]

^^^
The iBeam is an SBT (soundboard transducer), not a mini mic.