Upgrade from a Barcus-Berry Insider?

Hello folks.

My first post, with an intro and a question. I'm Tim, been playing for about 25yrs, but not really good at it, just play at church on an old beat up Tak N-20c(jumbor w/cedar top,mohagany ply b&s, w/split bridge) with a Barcus Berry Insider pickup. From the gitgo, I hated the sound from the barcus berry. The luthier glued it to the soundboard, rather than directly under the saddle, but with all that cedar on a jumbo soundboard, the sound was real overbearing, very harsh. I added an EMG onboard acoustic preamp (no controls) to ease the harshness and it helped a little, but not much. Back then, it was the cheapest alternative I had as a college student. I still don't have any money but I'm definitely considering upgrading from the barcus berry.

As for my playing style, I'm fingerpicking at home unplugged, and mostly strumming with a full band at church. From all the posts I've read K&K PWM seems to be the favored stuff around here, for its natural reproductions. Sounds good to me; I love the tone of my guitar unplugged and would love to reproduce it. How is it though in a band situation? Would it be a significant improvement from the barcus berry? I'm open to other pickups too, Baggs et al., Fishman et al. in AST or UTS but rather not spend more $ than my guitars worth, ya know? Again, my g'tar has a split bridge (definitely creates more problems than anything else).

Much thanks, and good to be here.

A little love guys/gals... please?

[bransonb]

I have a Barcus Berry Insider, along with an unidentified UST, wired together to a blending pot in an Alvarez Yairi DY-38. I purchased the guitar second hand this way. The Insider is attached to the sound board in this guitar also, so maybe that is the way Insiders are supposed to be installed. At home through an amp, with the Insider full on, the tone is very warm and woody. More warm and woody than the guitar sounds unplugged, as a matter of fact. Playing out though, the Insider just feeds back. And I only do open mics. I don't even try to blend it with the UST. I get the best results with the UST full on.

I don't use the Yairi playing out any more, though. I play my Hummingbird with a Bagg's M-1 and Para-DI. This rig sounds great, is very easy to install, and very easy to remove. When I was trying to decide on electronics for the Hummingbird I didn't know what would work best for me. So I figured I would start with the M-1 because of the ease at which it could be undone. As it turns out, I've never felt the need to try anything else.

Thanks bransonb. I know what you mean about the feedback problem. Adding the emg preamp fixed that problem for me, and I recently got a PADI, which made a big difference, but I'm still not satisfied with the tone. And my sound guys hates my guitar. He recommends a Fishman UST, for our band situation. But, finding an affordable split bridge UST is next to impossible.

I actually tried the M1, and wasn't crazy about it. Although the tone was good, I kept hitting the pickup while strumming, producing that tapping sound. So no go on that.

From reviews & recommendations here and in other places, I'm leaning towards the K&K PWM, but I'd like to first hear from folks who have experience with both the Insider and PWM.

Thanks again.

[rainsong]

If you don't have too much of a feedback problem with a Barcus glued to the actual top our your guitar I would think the K&K (mini) would be even less problematic glued on the bridgeplate. GLuing an SBT to the actual top would be just asking for feedback. Your soundman probably recommends a Fishman because he is used to how they sound and doesn't have too many problems with it. Fishman does make the Matrix in the split saddle design for your guitar, I just don't know the price. I usually recommend UST's or a mag for anybody in a band, but in your case I actually think the K&K may be the way to go. THe other option would be something like the Fishman Rare Earth mag.
It isn't sensitive about your pick hitting it like the M-1 and can get a very full, beefy sound when Eq'd through a PADI or something.

Thanks Mike for the very helpful info and advice. All things considered, the K&K and Rare Earth seem to fit the bill for me. The one thing thats keeping me from pulling the trigger is wondering if either would be a significant improvement on my currrent barcus berry pickup.

[bransonb]

Originally Posted by taylorenvy

All things considered, the K&K and Rare Earth seem to fit the bill for me. The one thing thats keeping me from pulling the trigger is wondering if either would be a significant improvement on my currrent barcus berry pickup.

You'll never know until you try them. The Rare Earth is pretty easily undone. And you can even install the K & K with double sided tape to at least get a sense of whether it will work for you.

Yup, good advice, well taken.

[rainsong]

Just the fact that the Barcus is installed on the top makes me think that any of the others discussed would be an improvement. I used to have an old stick-on preamp called the Gato that was similar to the Barcus. Sounded like crap and fedback like hell and it, too, was stuck on the top on the inside. I would seriously look into the split-saddle Fishman matrix. I play in an acoustic duo, not even a band with drums, and I had a devil of a time with feedback with my old K&K pure western. Granted, it was in a rosewood dread and it was not the mini. I have heard from many sources that the mini is much more feedback resistant. Since your soundman seems to like the Fishman, that's half the battle right there. Ideally you could have a Rare Earth or Fishman Matrix and a K&K and just dial in the appropriate amount of each depending on the situation and personal preference!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rainsong

Just the fact that the Barcus is installed on the top makes me think that any of the others discussed would be an improvement. I used to have an old stick-on preamp called the Gato that was similar to the Barcus.

Hi guys...
Just to keep info accurate, the K&K pure western mini is superglued to the bridgeplate exactly like the Barcus was glued in - I started with a Barcus and now have K&K mini in 4 guitars. The K&K consists of three very light and accurate ''dots'' which are glued between each pair of strings on the bridgeplate right beneath the saddle. The K&K is in a different class of pickup than a Barcus Berry.

I started playing with a Harmony guitar and now I play a handbuilt guitar. The resemblences are uncanny - both had tuners, six strings, same sized body and wood, a soundhole and 14 fret neck. Funny thing, the handbuilts just sound better even when I used the same strings on them...you get my drift.

The Barcus and K&K are very different in response - as different as a Harmony guitar and a handbuilt. Any similarity stops with them being glued to the bridgeplate. You cannot get much of a sense of how a K&K will perform by taping it in. The ones I've heard that are taped in are thin and do not have the full and fat sound.

As to managing pickups without feedback - been playing with pickups since the mid 1970s and if you use a stage amp and keep your personal guitar out of your personal floor monitor (or keep the monitor out from in front of you), they are easy to manage on stage. If you put your guitar through the floor monitor in front of you, feedback is begging to happen with every pickup known to man.

Only as a last resort do I use a feedback buster or lute hole cover - which is a couple times a year (and I play out about 150 times a year). And I play in aggressive and challenging stage situations without feedback protection.

Tone...
A preamp will improve nearly any passive pickup, and a ParaDI will make it more tweakable. But if you want really great tone it comes at a price. You have to start with a great sound source (good guitar) - and then decent transducers to transfer it to the board/amp. Then solid preamps. If any part of the equation is missing or weak the sound will suffer.

[guitaniac]

Interestingly, my experience with trying to tape in the the mini-Pure senors (in two guitars) was just the opposite of LJs. The taped sensors were incredibly bassy and I had to use a huge EQ correction to get a balanced tone. When I finally glued those suckers in, the signal was much more balanced.

Gary

Thanks guys for all the input. My main concern was the Tone issue, like Larry said...

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Tone...
A preamp will improve nearly any passive pickup, and a ParaDI will make it more tweakable. But if you want really great tone it comes at a price. You have to start with a great sound source (good guitar) - and then decent transducers to transfer it to the board/amp. Then solid preamps. If any part of the equation is missing or weak the sound will suffer.

I think I have 2 out of 3 of the tone equation. My Tak is not in the same class as say a Taylor in its design, material, and manufacturing, but after twenty years of pounding on it, I think I finally beat it into submission, where she actually sings pretty sweet for me now. And I have the venerable Baggs PADI. I just need that elusive third component.

I don't have a feedback problem, but I did wonder of the K&K was proned to it because if it's design. So I do appreciate the input about feedback.

I just don't like my tone, and my sound guys has a tough time trying to blend my sound with the rest of the band. My barcus berry does produce a relatively natural woody sound, but it definitely doesn't produce what I and many people would consider accurate or "pleasing".

At this point, I'm not opposed to a more electric sound from a given magnetic or UST pickup, but I think I still favor the K&K for it's price, relatively easy install, and for the purported truer reproduction. OTOH, I just got an email from Fishman saying that they have a split saddle option for their new Matrix Infinite. The nice thing about this model is that it comes with soundhole volume and tone controls.

Thanks again guys.

[rainsong]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi guys...
Just to keep info accurate, the K&K pure western mini is superglued to the bridgeplate exactly like the Barcus was glued in -

I assume you mean your Barcus? The poster stated that his was glued to the top, not the bridgeplate.

[rainsong]

Originally Posted by taylorenvy

OTOH, I just got an email from Fishman saying that they have a split saddle option for their new Matrix Infinite. The nice thing about this model is that it comes with soundhole volume and tone controls.

I'm really curious to hear some feedback about this one.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rainsong

I assume you mean your Barcus? The poster stated that his was glued to the top, not the bridgeplate.

Hi RS...
Actually he said it was glued to the soundboard, and he didn't specify inside or outside of the soundboard till a later post.

But if it's afixed to the soundboard, I don't think it matters much if it's outside or inside the body (except inside you won't hit it with a pick)...it's not going to distribute sound the way it was intended - which is not very efficiently.

I should have specified the Barcus Insider pickup is designed to be cemented under the bridgeplate same as the K&K Pure Western Mini.