Converting a K&K pure mini to dual-source system.. suggestions?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by smossy

Thanks folks! I’ve learned a lot here, great thread!

So, I ordered a used DPA4061. Seems to be in good shape. I’ve heard Doug Young say he’s gotten some lemons on the used market - anything I should look out for ? Honestly not even sure how to test it when I get it because I don’t think it has a standard XLR output ?

I don't think there's any way to really test that the mic is up to spec, short of having DPA verify it. The only way I knew I'd gotten some "lemons", was that I bought quite a few over time, and noticed that some had lower output, and sometimes seemed to have a different sound. Most of the ones that show up on ebay have been used in theatre productions, and therefore could have been abused, you just don't know. The cheapest ones I found tended to have broken connectors, which I didn't care about since I'd be soldering them in anyway, but was another indication that they may not have been treated with kid gloves.

I've been just using Audix L5Os, as a good compromise, $200 new, they sound good, and have easier to work with wires.

How is the feedback at higher volumes when DPA4061 is used with K&K?

Any mic is going to be feedback-prone. An internal mic will also be boomy. You can improve on both with a high pass filter. I usually cut everything below around 200Hz. With an SBT and a mic, you're combining the two most feedback-prone options we have, so I'm not sure "higher volumes" is going to be successful, depending on how high "high" is. SBT+mic is best for lower sound levels where people can appreciate the tone of your guitar. At high volumes, the game changes to just being heard :-)

Finally- can a soldered in DPA be removed in a guitar and put in another guitar, if needed? Or is the installation kind of a one-time deal (like the pure mini for example)

Sure. What I actually do with these is solder the mic to a mini-plug (1/8 inch or RCA), then outfit my end pin jacks with a corresponding jack wired to the ring. Then I can pop them in and out, change them, etc. One thing I sometimes do is, if I have a louder gig (which I hate, but...) is unplug the mic and pop in a magnetic pickup that I've also wired up with a min-plug. Then I have a mag+SBT system that can be more feedback-resistant.

[smossy]

I’m assuming a pre-amp like grace Felix could power the mic, right?

Does anyone have any info on how they mounted the DPA? Maybe there is a thread somewhere w photos?

Anyone know of a good tech in Chicago, Milwaukee, or madison WI area who could do this install?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by smossy

I’m assuming a pre-amp like grace Felix could power the mic, right?

Does anyone have any info on how they mounted the DPA? Maybe there is a thread somewhere w photos?

Yes, Felix provides bias power for the mic. You can find the Felix manual online, BTW. Worth a read so you know what you're getting. Lots of options and features.

Here's how I mount my mics, just a little wire cllp (these aren't all the same mic)

clip_mic_foam.jpg

mic_in_clip.jpg

mic_in_martin.jpeg

[smossy]

Thanks Doug! Super helpful. It’s been challenging finding a luthier willing to take on the installation in the Midwest.

[smossy]

Thanks again Doug! Looks like that white clip used to mount the mic is just the kind you can find in any old Walgreens right? No issues with it sticking to guitar? Get the foam at RadioShack?

Curious how others have mounted their internal mics. My DPA 4061 arrived today and I’ll be taking it to a luthier next week! Excited.

[jklotz]

My setup is a little differnt that the way you are going. I got a dazzo SBT and had it pre soldered to a stereo jack along with the Sunn Audio mic. It works with the Sunnaudio 2 ch preamp, which sends the phantom power. It's a neat system, one T/R/S/ (stereo) 1/4" cable and it's pre wired where you plug it into ch 1 and the mic automatically shows up in ch 2. Very convenient for live, just plug it in and it works. If you just plug a mono cable (T/S), then it's just sending the dazzo (SBT) to ch 1.

I did the install myself and it was fairly simple and straight forward. The hardest part was moving the mic around to find just to right spot to mount it to before I peeled the backing off the sticky pad and stuck it down.

One thing I will add is, after doing all that work and spending all that money, I only use it live every once in a while. One problem is I need 2 guitars to gig, one in standard and the other in alt tuning, and using the mic takes up both channels of my preamp. Another is feedback. Unless I have a big enough stage to get some distance from me and the PA, I'm only able to sneak in just a little bit of the mic before feedback starts to be an issue.

I did this little recoded test a while back just going direct into my interface. 1st is just the Dazzo and the 2nd is with the mic and pickup in there if you are interested in hearing the difference:

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by smossy

Thanks again Doug! Looks like that white clip used to mount the mic is just the kind you can find in any old Walgreens right? No issues with it sticking to guitar? Get the foam at RadioShack?

That white clip came from Radio Shack, but Amazon has lots of them. I prefer black, less visible. The foam is just stuff I had lying around, tends to show up in lots of packaging, pickups, pedals, etc. Just something to wrap around the mic so the clamp has something to grab and that acts somewhat as a shock-mount.

The clamps come with double-sticky tape, and the mics weigh nothing, so no, no problem with it sticking to the guitar - well one potential issue: you have to find a spot that it can fit in. On some guitars, I can't put it where that photo shows due to braces. But there's always room somewhere reasonable

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jklotz

One thing I will add is, after doing all that work and spending all that money, I only use it live every once in a while. One problem is I need 2 guitars to gig, one in standard and the other in alt tuning, and using the mic takes up both channels of my preamp. Another is feedback. Unless I have a big enough stage to get some distance from me and the PA, I'm only able to sneak in just a little bit of the mic before feedback starts to be an issue.

I just hit the mute switch and change guitars, the 2nd channel is too valuable, especially in stereo, not to use it for the mic :-)

Feedback with the 2 most feedback-prone options, SBT and mic, is certainly always an issue if you have to have high stage volume. I set the high pass filter fairly high on the mic, and mix in whatever I can without hitting a feedback level. Sometimes that amount is zero, but with a good PA and what I consider a sane volume, I can usually use nearly equal mix and pickup, tho again, with the low end rolled off of the mic.

[guitarman68]

I mount the DPA 4061 with the rubber mount that came with the mic once. DPA offers it separately (DPA-DMM0007), like here:
https://www.thomann.de/de/dpa_dmm0007.htm

Same here: I set the HPF on the the mic channel on the Grace Felix up to 200 kHz and blend the mic in up to 50/50. I use a QSC K8.2 as a personal monitor and connect the "amp out" on the Felix with the K8.2. So I have control over my monitor level and have pretty consistent sound quality from venue to venue. I really like the sound quality of that QSC speaker and prefer it over any acoustic amp I tried or owned.
Never had any problems with low to moderate stage volumes. Would not work in loud rock bands.

[smossy]

thanks! Woah, that DPA mount looks interesting. Is it heavy? Hopefully it wouldn't impact the guitar's natural sound in any way when attached inside.

thanks for all the great tips. I'm excited to install this system in my guitar. Awesome to hear that feedback isn't really an issue w/ medium stage volumes. I intend to pick up a Grace Felix eventually.

[guitarman68]

No, the DPA rubber mount will not add weight to your guitar. It's a tiny disc that weighs nothing. I place it exactly as shown on Doug Youngs pics: On the edge of the sound hole between the D-string and the G-string, mic pointing towards the neck.
A less expensive and great sounding alternative to the Grace Felix is the Sunnaudio MS-2 preamp. Highly recommended ! But if you want to go for the Felix, go for Felix 2. Like with the SunnAudio MS-2 you can route the solo boost to "pickup only" which will give you some extra gain before feedback when soloing. Not possible on the original Grace Felix.

[smossy]

Thanks, guitarman!

So here I am at another crossroads. I've listened to demos of the Dazzo.. it sounds pretty great to my ears and probably better than the K&K pure mini if one were to do a direct comparison.

Had originally planned to use DPA 4061 w/ the K&K - but would DPA plus Dazzo be a significant improvement? I imagine the process of adding a mic to Dazzo is similar to adding mic to K&K - assuming Dazzo pickups have a stereo output jack with typical ring-tip configuration?


Ah.. the joys of chasing that elusive tone...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by smossy

Thanks, guitarman!

So here I am at another crossroads. I've listened to demos of the Dazzo.. it sounds pretty great to my ears and probably better than the K&K pure mini if one were to do a direct comparison.

Had originally planned to use DPA 4061 w/ the K&K - but would DPA plus Dazzo be a significant improvement? I imagine the process of adding a mic to Dazzo is similar to adding mic to K&K - assuming Dazzo pickups have a stereo output jack with typical ring-tip configuration?


Ah.. the joys of chasing that elusive tone...

My Dazzo's have all come with a stereo jack. If they don't, the jack is simple to replace, and the wiring would be exactly the same, pickup to the tip, mic to the ring. Dazzo vs K&K is going to be a matter of taste. Dazzo's tend to have a more extended frequency response and they come in different models with different bass response so you can tailor them to your guitar. Here's an example of my Martin OM with a Dazzo plus a Bartlett internal mic thru the Sunnaudio MS-2 preamp with it's stereo effect (recorded direct out of the preamp):

[smossy]

Jklotz, this sounds amazing. The mic really adds alot of air.

[smossy]

Wow Doug, that sounds amazing. Great tone..